Ohio Yet another fix or replace question

Mark if want to quote the Bosch send to fdsimon@cisco.com

 

OK

I am looking for a flow center. I normally size my pumps to do just enough.

Do we know what the loops are?

 

Just curious have you considered other brands? Climatemaster is obviously one of the best but you are paying for the brand name, I believe their is one that has the loop pump built in, which save you 5 or 600 bucks. Plus the pump is sized really close to what you need. Not positive but a little homework can save thousands, let us know what you find out. take lots of pictures as well. Best of luck!

 

David

I'll buy all the pumps you have at those prices.

 

As a reference point, I recently got a quote for a Climatemaster Tranquility 30 (3 ton - 2 stage) unit with internal variable speed loop pump for right around $7K delivered. I plan to install it myself. I would guess a 4 ton unit would run no more than $1K more. I see a 4 ton Climatemaster Tranquility 30 4 ton unit listed online for $7875.

I would think that 2 techs could easily remove your old unit and install a new unit and flush the loop in 2 days (16 hours). Assuming $100/hr labor for 2 techs (assuming $50/hr for lead/owner, $25/hr for helper, & $25/hr overhead), that is $1600 labor. Throw in $400 for misc supplies, hoses, fittings, etc. and you would be looking at around $10k for a new 4 ton 2-stage geothermal unit with built-in loop pump. That would be typical labor rates in my area. Maybe labor rates in your area are much higher?

 

Yeah I guess the point I'm making is, I only wish I made 100$ an hr. And where theirs limited to no tecitenal skilled work I imagine you could save tons by avoidING that 100$ an hr. Even if you get clever and hire a moving, electric, plumber, ect.
I'm just saying too often I have hired a so called "professional" to make sure the job is done right and end up still getting 10$ hr. Kid fresh out of high school and find myself fixing it anyway. It's your wallet, but Im just saying this is a great learning experience and if all goes well its a chance to save a ton of cash.
As far and cheap pumps, I was just refuring to some radiant heat loop pump we had to replace a few years ago at grandpa's place. They were defiantly the cheaper pumps of the two. Thanks. Again just my 2cents I am in no way a professional in this field.

 

Ps: pumps, are just pumps. Don't let a fancy name tag or a specific purpose fool you. And a flow center is just a fancy tank with a pump attached at the bottom.

Btw, how much dose a flow center or a pump cost for a 1 ton unit?

 

Indeed, you are not a professional, and do not seem to understand the costs of running a business. And I am not surprised why too often you seem to get "professionals" which are not seem to be doing a good job for you. Maybe it is because you are always trying to "save a ton of cash"?
And no, pumps are not just pumps. They differ significantly in quality where the small and tiny issues matter. Know how matters, and it cost money to gather know how. I for my part refuse to install no name equipment. Why? Because it is me who then looses money (and more importantly time) because I am the one who then needs to fix it, if it fails.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that life is too short to drink cheap wine. Life is also to short to deal with tasks I never did before which take me multiple times as long as someone who makes $100/hours and is quick and good in it, and I can call and who is there for me when something does not work.

I don't mind you given advise on how to save money in installing heat pumps yourself. But keep in mind, cost $1 for a scalpel, but $1,000 for the know how where to make the cut, how deep to make the cut, and at what angle to make the cut. But consider the price when you are 1 millimeter off.

I think your best quote is "...and anything you can't handle (electric, plumbing, ect.) call a pro".

 

I didn't mean to upset you, and I don't want anyone to do anything to far outside their comfort range. But, I dont understand why it never dawns on some people to never give it a try. I mean I would have never thought to epoxy it, but it sounds like it didn't work so I'll probably skip that one (thanks)

All I'm saying is if you think 12 k is too much look into doing it yourself look at the skills and materials and consider things warrenty and after sale customer support, and if it still costs too much just do it yourself.

If a company is truly good at what they do they can compete with a diy'er like you said, construction crews do it all the time! And simple weekend handy men save 1000's every day with no problems. Sometimes the burn their houses down. That's why i said if your not cofident call a pro, but if your skilled and do your homework it is possible to do a better job, because your are so much more invested in your home then someone who's only reword is the paycheck when he's done.

To me at least this don't sound like a difficult job, it sounds like a weekend with some friends and 1000$ saved. Besides you can still pay a contractor a few 100 to inspect it when your done, and support you local busness by buying through them, but if they refuse to sell cause their greedy and want the work for themselves it's not your problem. But that's all I have to say. The choice is the guys with checkbook. hope I'd didn't offend anyone.

If Ohio wasn't so far I would lend a hand for a beer or two, just to Learn a thing or two with ya.

 

It appears that you never bolt in a unit.

You usually need relatively specialized equipment, such as purge carts, and now how. Yes, all the information is online. The same is true for building a thermo-nuclear devise.
That does not mean that one can easily filter through the noise of missing or mis-information.

I don't mind well informed DIYs, I just mind the attitude that a professional installer is not doing the best job possible, because is not invested much in the home. Or greedy if he chooses to refuse to sell if he does not want to own the problems of a DIY who thinks he knows it all.

There is a reason why some people make more than $100 per hour. Usually because they provide a value which exceeds the equivalent of $100/hour, otherwise they would be out of business or not have a job.

Maybe you should start over again here, you seem to be able to be nice on occasion, offering a couple beers at least....

 

Yeah sure come on over the fridge will be full! As long as you don't get mean when you get a Lil tipsi. Haha, i dont mean to say you are anyone here is falty but I'm sure if he got it most of the work done he can still save some serious doe and just had someone come flush his system after the fact. From what I've seen in my area with hvac companies ( little to no geoexchang around here.) Are cheap botch jobs that cost thousounds, I mean I bought my house last spring and the hvac is really something awful, at least in my opinion. They ran flex duct for the whole new addition the just layed everything on the dirt, kinked it through the accces panel all the way 50' down to a few rooms. I figured the previous homeowners did it, but when I called the name on the tag they came out and we're more than happy to show me the previous paperwork (not even sure it was legal) and holy cow almost 4k in just the ductwork alone. We ended up adding a booster fan just to get the house somewhat even temperature, it would easily be +/- 10degrees. When I see that I think my 10 year old nefuew would have done a better job.

Anyway I would at least ask what labor you can do to save some doe, some installers (especially great ones) are more than happy to give up grunt work, because they have jobs lining up elswhere.

I still stay firm thought that doubters suck, I still hate being told I can't cause I don't have a fancy degree or I'm a licensed contractor or a pro. I hate when people call people stupid for trying Jb wield on a cracked engine block when it's going to go to a junk yard if it can be fixed. And I've personally seen it work! I think that if someone has the time and the research and drive he can do a damn fine job the first time, especially with some help from a great community like this one. So I encurage it everywhere I can, I mean know your limits but give it a shot. I refuse to tell anyone they cant, just call a pro. Though the pro that's willing to help even when he isn't getting anything for it, is usally the one I hire when I can't get something to work.

 

No question there are contractors which deliver poor work for a lot of money. They usually don't do well in the long run. Usually they only succeed with people like you who are trying to get it done cheap. It is up to you if you put the time and money at risk, and there are good stories here of DIYs doing a good job. But for most people the time and money they spend, and the additional risk of failure, are not worth doing it by themselves.
I had enough occasions where people tried to hire me when they could not get anything to work, from the Million $ geo system to the DIYs. Either they did not know better, like the engineers who screwed up the million $ job, or some of the DIYs who was trying to be cheap and continue to be cheap. Anyway, they simply lack knowhow and for some reasons they continue to make the same mistakes.

Most of the people get in trouble because they don't know better, if you are an exception because you will know it all when you begin, that is great! Given you statement
"To me at least this don't sound like a difficult job, it sounds like a weekend with some friends and 1000$ saved" you are off to a good start.

 

Haha well that's your professional opinion, and I can respect that. I'm never said I know everything, and none of us do, not even you mr. Pro. But I know what I know and for everything else I ask. I still believe it could be done without problems, like I said if you can't do something or don't know, don't ever assume and you should be okay.

Last but not least don't ever pay someone to do something if you have no idea what their doing, make them explain it to you and know what your paying for. Dave ramsI told me that years ago and it's saved my but a few times.

I think we both understand each other we just still just don't agree and that's fine with me, I've made my point, and you seemed to make yours. Can we agree to dissagree.

 

Haha well that's your professional opinion, and I can respect that. I'm never said I know everything, and none of us do, not even you mr. Pro. But I know what I know and for everything else I ask. I still believe it could be done without problems, like I said if you can't do something or don't know, don't ever assume and you should be okay.

Last but not least don't ever pay someone to do something if you have no idea what their doing, make them explain it to you and know what your paying for. Dave ramsI told me that years ago and it's saved my but a few times.

I think we both understand each other we just still just don't agree and that's fine with me, I've made my point, and you seemed to make yours. Can we agree to dissagree.

 

Heat pumps, furnaces, transmissions, water heaters, jet engines etc. all a matter of a few nuts and bolts to someone in the know. I don't know an installer of any that makes $100/hour. I do know when folks use slanted math that excludes the cost of overhead such as insurance, warranties, advertising, trucks and so forth it is easy to arrive at outrageous numbers and yes, all may avoid these cost and do it themselves.
By avoiding these, some benefits are lost such as warranty and such support. It is a trade that some are willing to make and there are seldom hard feelings on our side and there ought not be hard feelings on yours. We do offer value and won't apologize for it.
Once you get the job done, please divide your savings by the hours you spent learning enough to do the job, subtract the permits if applicable (or their cost if you choose to ignore local law), other miscellaneous tool rental/purchase cost, warranty value is about $500 (just because you get a mail order unit with a warranty doesn't mean you won't pay for repairs), 50 cents for every mile you drive picking stuff up, your hourly cost (wages plus, health insurance, employers pension contribution, vacation/sick day hours earned), portion of your computers life and internet service for research (yours or your employers cost if you took it from work), don't forget the plumber and electrician and mover you hired and if they are not insured calculate the exposure value to your homeowners for comp and liability (likely $50 each).........let's see if you truely "saved" what you expected.
These are real cost contributors for us and real costs/values to you even if you don't write a check for them.
(FYI the CM units with the built in pumps cost more than their open loop/external pump counter parts so they savings you imagine is not there. Also the brands are fairly cost competative whether known name or not. Some of the off brands cost just as much or more because CM or Bosch built them and a "re-brander" stuck their name on it).

 

Yeah your right, that was a really well written article, thanks for the time. I concur 100%. If you factor in your time and ect. You probably will come out a head to pay someone. Though if you don't have the money or its invested elswhere, and you have a few hrs every day here or their it is a big chunk of savings (especially if you skip permits) lol you can save further by making deals, and finding good units on scrach and dent sales. Of course you always have a risk to reword to factor in. But yeah that makes perfect sence.

 

Good point on the built in pumps, I was refuring to a unit on ebay that was 2k and had the pump built in as well. Huge savings most over look browsing ebay.

 

David,

there is a difference between Heat Pumps and circulation pumps. We are aware what flow centers cost. Installers who earn their money with this are not just passing on the product at cost, since they need to cover their expenses and overhead. It is called markup, something you seem to be very opposed to.

Lets put it that way, the raw product you are selling (hay bales) cost you close to zero in actual material costs ($0.01 for seeds?), but you probably sell it $5-10 a bale, at a huge profit. But I bet overall if you factor in your overhead and your time, you barely make any money.

I don't see your point in showing us examples of cheaper products with online retailers. You will see what happens to your overhead when the first flow center fails or leaks and you have to send it back.