What is the best loop system? Pond,horizontal,or vertical?

I have a 19 year old waterfurnace 3.5 ton with a pond loop. I live in northwest ohio. I have a 2500-2600 sf house plus a 1400sf basement to heat and cool. House was built in 1991 it is a 1.5 story brick. My electric bills have went up from $150-$250 average in the winter time to last nov.and dec. up to almost $400 per month. I noticed them spiking up over the last 7-8 years. Nothing has changed. Price of electricity is the same also. I have had several techs down and they say my system is working properly except my water temp coming in the loop is cold at around 26* or so.
Everybody wants me to replace the system with a new one. Some say the loop is fine others say replace the loop. I am at a loss and don't know what to believe or do. I have been heating with a corn stove the last 3 winters. I know my geo use to work well here. In 2000 my total electric bill for a full 12 months was $1328 for a full year. Now this is for everything. I have no gas in my house. This is hot water and lights. Everything. Now it is way over $2000. Any suggestions? The house is insulated well. Thyanks

 

cniese,

I am not a pro, just a homeowner.

Do you have electric aux heat? Is is running unnecessarily?

Z

 

I am in a similar situation with a new Geo install.
The one contractor wants to go with a pond install,
whereas the other contractor wants to use my water
well. The water coming out of the well is 50 degrees,
which I think would cool much better than the shallow
pond water, which gets as hot as 86 degrees in the
August heat. In the winter, I would think that the 50
degree well water could be heated up more economically
than the 40 degree shallow pond water (especially when
the pond is covered with ice). I think the contractor who loves pond installs doesn't see the extra long-term operating expense I will be incurring if I go with the
pond loop.

 

Zach
Yes i have the auxillary heat and emergency backup heat. I can run just the geo, or geo plus auxillary if it calls for it, or just emergency if the geo itself won't work. (If this makes sence) If my house drops in temperature say 2-3 degrees under what the thermastat is set at then and only then will the aux. heat kick on. If the house just maintains heat without it raising temperature just the geo will run. It will run 24 hours if its at all cold out. Very little shut down time. When the sun goes down the geo kicks on pretty much continuous if its 20 degrees or colder. The house will usually loose temp by morning...

 

I think it is time to clean the co-axe heat EX

The system is old enough to warrant a good going over.

Most HVAC techs are clueless on geo. One needs to look at all the numbers, including FIRST ENERGY. I live in Sheffield Lake, OH. and work with Zack. Give me a call, but hurry as winter is coming.

 

Re: I think it is time to clean the co-axe heat EX

What do you mean by the co-axe heat EX??? Do you mean the heat exchanger in the unit itself? Is that the big coil that the air filters filter? Or is it something inside deeper? What would be dirty on it or from what? Scale from the pond loop,air filter external dirt, freon?? Please explain more in detail. The last guy here was in the geo business for 30+ years now. He is supposed to be good.

 

Has the depth of the pond changed?
How about entering and leaving water temps?
Does your flow center have 1 or 2 pumps?
Joe

 

Joe
Pond is 22 feet deep where the loop is placed. Pond is down atleast 5 feet less now, but usually is full by winter. Pond is roughly 1/2 acre...
PSI of loop- 26 in / 21 out
Temp 80.2 degrees just setting for a week off
Cool mode- 88.8 degrees out loop temp
Heat mode- 70.8 degrees out loop temp
PSIG 285-95 heat mode. don't know what this means
PSIG 210-66 cooling mode.
113 degree heat from plenum supply
54 degree temp on a/c mode supply
Hope these numbers help.

 

Flow center has 2 pumps. Water in temp was 88 degrees, water out was 79 degrees. So a 9 degree spread. I was told this was ok just on the low side of the specs.

 

This is an occasion where we don't know what we don't know...
change in average depth could impact performance as could build-up around loops (i.e. leaves or seaweed) depending on density. If your usage for heat pump is not measured seperately, other things in house could change load....what has changed? Windows, skylights, number of occupants, appliances....?
If your equipment was tested recently the load is not heavy and may not be telling (I declined to do most of our A/C checks this year as there was rarely significant load).
Your problem appears to be subtle and may be difficult to solve remotely.
Where in Ohio are you (see who's closer; me or mark).
Do you have the original start-up data?
joe

 

Joe
I don't have anything from original date. I live in Ottawa,Ohio 45875 Over between Findlay and Lima,ohio. Appliances are all new within last 2 years, low wattage lightbulbs (Low energy ones), Same occupants, house didn't change any either. Maybe the loop has algae on it. That is what i am thinking. But i can't see it unless i float it up. I don't know what to do.

 

Build up on loop alone is not necessarily a problem (wet algae still moves heat more quickly than HDPE. I'm more interested in a change in pond depth (essentially making your loops shallower). The quality of the water used to fill your loops, the type of antifreeze....
so much to know....
If you are not cooling the house in our weather something must be amiss; either a real change of load or capacity.
Do you have multiple zones?
Supposed to be in Swanton in the next few weeks,send me a PM with Email address.

 

I sent the email address to you by email i think. Did you receive it? Also i no it has no zones. Just one system. It is a story and a half home. They should of done 2 zones but didn't. Yes the pond is down probably 4-5 feet this summer. But last winter when the problem is happening the pond is plumb full.

 

Got ur email.
Lastwinter was the coldest since you put the unit in so that's not a smoking gun.
You mentioned this has been a trend for 7 or 8 years, that's more interesting.
Do you lose 4-5 feet every summer?
Does the pond have a tributary that may have changed?
Changing the heat pump and the loops as some of your bidders suggest will certainly solve your problem, but it is unlikely that both have failed.
Was one of the bidders the contractor that said everything is okay?
Do you know how many feet of what diameter pipe you have in the pond?
J

 

No i don't know how many feet is in the pond. I do think it is 1 1/4" dia. though. It floated about 9-10 years ago in the winter and i tied it down with blocks. Yes the guy who said i may want to replace everything also said everything was fine. (I don't think these guys know how to check these out). Yes i loose 4-5 feet of water every summer in pond. It is my only sorce of water for the house and the evaporation. I don't know if last winter was the coldest or not since 1991. But i only heated nov. and dec. and then i switched to the cornfurnace to heat the rest of the winter. My geo was just way to expensive to run. I can heat my house all winter on corn cheaper then the nov. and dec. months of using the geo.

 

You indicated that the loops floated up out of the blue and the following year you noticed performance issues.
Further in your private E-mail you mentioned that you recently had loops reflushed due to low pressure and asks if that could account for normal operation.
The answer is yes.
If tests were performed after flushing symptoms may have been obscured. However was it before or after flushing that you noticed it wasn't cooling?
(this falls under the I don't know what I don't know catagory)
Next question is where water is going. If no visible leaks start with tissue paper around flow center and other possible leak points. Tissue is an excellant leak detector.
I'll bid you goodnight (Colts game getting good for now perhaps others will have thoughts tomorrow.
j

 

Yes the loops floated several years ago in the winter. Around 2001 sticks in my head. I tied them down with a block. It did run/work good after that for another year or so. Then it went downhill fast. I had to replace the big coil in it due to ice buildup in the geo on the coil. This coil is the big 2.5 foot square one the air filters filter. After that for another it worked good again. Then is went down fast again. I bought a corn burner for heat in 2006 or 2007. The geo was just to expensive to run.
Yes i just had the loop flushed and charged back up. I never had that done before. The psi was down to 8psi when we started. We had the psi gauge inline for 1 week monitoring psi and it is holding. The loop man is certain it is holding psi.
It will cool my house. I never really said it won't cool it just doesn't cool as effieciently as it use to. It runs a awful lot even during the summer. If you want to cool the house down 3 degrees it will take atleast 3 hours of continuous running to do it. And during the heat of the day i don't think it will do it much below 73 degrees. It will run a LONG time. Even in the winter it won't get the house above 68-70 degrees max. If its 15 degrees out and windy at night it will fall to 64-65 degrees and will run continous all night. Does this explain my problem any better? It use to be alot better, not great, but alot better. We literally use twice the energy now. If i didn't have the corn burner i don't know how we would make it through the winters now. I would bet last year if i didn't have the corn stove my electric bill would have topped $500 a month. Where 6-7 years ago it only topped $250 ever. Hard to belive that i could of doubled the usage.

 

i'm struggling with some of the typical internet diagnostic woes.
I'm not quite clear on the time line.....
Did tech that said everything worked fine (before offering to sell you a new system) do so before or after system flush? Was he the one who flushed it?
Has the poor cooling performance improved since the flush?
Northwest OH has some crappy water. What water originally was used to fill your loops?
J

 

Joe- I had 2 techs from different companys down to look at it. It was after the flush when the #2 tech said everything was fine. Yes that company gave me a price on new. (Because i wanted the new price) The first tech checked it out before the flush. He said the unit checks out but he wanted to flush the loop. He thought i had loop problems but couldn't give specifics. That company gave me a price also (because i wanted one). But he did say i can replace your geo but it won't fix the problem. And i had a 3rd party down who flushed the loop for me. He installs the loops everyday. He said other then the psi being low @ 8psi the loop checks out fine. So???
I can't give a for sure answer as to if the flush helped the cooling or not. Haven't run it much in any real heat to tell. But i don't think it works like it use to...
I have no idea what kinda water was originally in it. I would say my pond water is whats in it. Unless the company brought their own... I never had a water well on my property so its not well water...

 

I think Joe is on the trail, knowing what he doesn't know without first hand knowledge. Many pond loops work in Ohio with 8-10 feet of water. 14 feet doesn't appear to be the problem, which doesn't rule out the loop or loop size itself. You are cold zone, meaning your loop should be sized for heating, which is generally over-sized for cooling. It sounds (internet exclusion applies) that you have a working system that may have a number of contributing little things that add up. Reduced efficiency for summer operation, tells me that winter operation would be considerably worse. If memory serves me 1991 was an average Ohio winter with good results from your system. 1992 and 1993 were not noteable here (N.E. Ohio) so I think you started building a cumulative reduction in efficiency....something a trained eye should be able to uncover, especially if you noted a drop in EWT.