Waterfurnace Series 7 Energy Use

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by josephparris, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Waterfurnace is working on a web based application to remotely display the data either on your PC on on a webpage. Can't wait.

    One thing I found is that the temp sensors are mounted right on the pipes, thus they are off a couple degrees. I hope they are adding means to calibrate it.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  2. josephparris

    josephparris Member

    Yes, I was told that when my system was installed. It was to be ready this spring I was told, but lately I was told it would be next year. Not sure how long I can wait :)
  3. WF_Inc

    WF_Inc Member

    The software issue that we are experiencing has to do with the internal math being calculated incorrectly; unfortunately, the information displayed on the thermostat at this time is not accurate. Once the new software is issued; this should clarify these concerns.

    As for how the energy usage is accumulated, there are current sensors within the unit that collect energy data. This data is then sent to the control board, and the thermostat gathers this information from the control board. The algorithm pertains to how the energy usage is divided between heating 1&2, cooling 1&2, auxiliary heat, and continuous fan.
  4. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Good to know.
  5. josephparris

    josephparris Member

    So WF has admitted to a software issue with it's Series 7 Home Energy Management reporting on this forum, but my installer has yet to here from WF about the issue. Wouldn't it be good PR to issue a bulletin to all WF dealers so they could let all the Series 7 owners know of the issue and what is being done to correct it?

    My installer heard it from me, which I would find a little embarresing if I was the dealer.

    Just MHO......
  6. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    They have responded to you publicly in a social media forum. I see no fault with that. Miles ahead of other manufacturers in our industry.
  7. JFLame

    JFLame Member

    I have to side with Joseph Parris on this. Although I commend WF for responding here, they clearly dropped the ball on the quality assurance aspect of this system. I don't see how if it was sent through any QA how these shortcomings could NOT have been found. Perhaps they were and due to product launch commitments the decided to push forward anyway, but I doubt we'll never know. In any case, these shortcomings and issues should be made available to dealers so they CAN inform their customers. Judging your company by the others in the industry is not IMO the right metric to use. A company should strive to be the best, and communication of issues is paramount to being that. Saying you're "better than the other guys" is hardly something to be proud of if everybody else is terrible to begin with. It's like being the smartest kid in the remedial class.
  8. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Given that this is the first attempt (of which I'm aware) by an HVAC manufacturer to offer true energy monitoring, some teething pains are not unexpected and worthy of our patience while the gremlins are worked out.
  9. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    Bleeding edge vs. leading edge. This industry moves slowly due to our livelihood being put at stake if we're too quick to adapt the "latest" and get stuck with lemons in 2 years. So yes, we do judge ourselves on what others are doing.

    You know how difficult it is to get a corporation to allow itself to have a public voice? That is likely why no other manufacturer has a public voice outside of sterilized press releases.

    Yes. We want accurate data. These are valid complaints.

    Every number I supply to my clients inevitably involves the request for 2 more. So we're getting there.
  10. josephparris

    josephparris Member

    I know we have gotten off track from the original post of this thread, but I want to clarify my original statements. I am very happy with my WF 7 series system and would not trade it for any other. I would do it again and will do it again. The point is "I don't mind waiting on technology", I would just "like to know I am waiting". It has only been from me running the numbers and questioning them that I now know. I have even offered my WF contact to be a test case in the real world when the software update is available. I want to see it work and believe I can benefit from it's data. So with that said, that is enough about that.
  11. dmj2359

    dmj2359 New Member

    Agreed. I had a 7 series 3 ton unit installed when our new house was built (just completed November 2012). I have had a TED monitoring the whole house, plus the WaterFurnace + water heater subsystem independently so I was able to compare the data real time and verify that the instantaneous monitoring is functional. Based on my measurements the fan + compressor numbers (and presumably the electric heat, but it's never been on except for the initial system test when the TED wasn't running) are accurate but the loop pump power is off. When the system was originally installed the circulator pump always showed 0 watts - turns out the pump type had never been programmed into the Aurora. Once it was fixed it now shows/records a number, but the circulator pump power consumption reported by the WaterFurnace appears to be overestimated (by almost 100W in some cases). Overall this puts the total system accuracy within 10%, not bad for a first go. I can record/post more accurate numbers when I get home if anyone is interested.

    I've also had another peculiar problem. We also have an IntelliZone2 setup with 3 zones. Twice in the last 3 months (since the system has been operational) the thermostat has reset, changing the Zone 1 heat to 70 degrees and turning Zones 2 & 3 off. There were no associated power outages/blips with these resets. Anyone else seen it?
  12. josephparris

    josephparris Member

    Installed a current transformer (CT) on my WF Series 7 circuit today and found that the system in standby mode is drawing 350 watts continuously while showing 0 watt usage on the AID tool. Is anyone else monitoring this data? Does anyone know if this is correct? Could the electronics be using this much power? This sorta skews the information reported by the thermostat when the unit is running and showing total wattage being used by the compressor, fan, and VS flow center.

    Interesting stuff!!
  13. josephparris

    josephparris Member

    Sorry, but I forgot to mention before someone asks. I turned the beaker off to the unit for a 1/2 hour and during this time the CT showed 0 watt draw. As soon as I turned the breaker back on and in standby the wattage usage was 350 again.
  14. dmj2359

    dmj2359 New Member

    Something is off with that for sure - is it possible that something else in the house has tapped off the branch circuit for the heat pump?

    According to the thermostat my system in standby shows fan consumption at 40 watts - whether or not the air circulator fan is running full time on speed 2. With the fan on measured power from the TED is about 48 watts - most of this seems to be the electronics and the zone damper motors. My system draws about 350 watts on the lowest heat setting (Compressor speed - 1, Fan speed 5 or 6 depending on the active zone, and circulator pump on whatever it's on (is variable speed but no readout on speed setting via thermostat). Total difference between the sum of the thermostat and the TED is about 10%, and most of the inaccuracy is in the WaterFurnace's circulator pump measurement.
  15. JFLame

    JFLame Member

    I just can't believe that. If the unit is dissipating 350w while on standby you should feel heat being generated by the unit. Imagine 3.5 100w lightbulbs turned on inside the cabinet. Major heat. Open up the access panels and see if you can feel heat coming from the unit. If it's room temperature something is just not right.

    Is it possible your pumps are always running? Does 350w come close to the wattage reported for the flow center?

    Interesting is not the word I'd use if it is indeed pulling that kind of wattage while not running...
  16. a0128958

    a0128958 Member

    I laughed a little when I saw this this morning!

    Actually, both products, the TED, and the WEL, while they both report electrical energy usage (one of a number of functions for the WEL), they have certain and distinct markets they're pointed at. They're both good products.

    The TED is less capable than the WEL. But, it's less expensive, and darn near installable by any DIYer, even DIYers with particularly limited skills. And with the focus on 'any customer can install this,' customer support is stronger.

    The WEL is an exceptionally powerful product for measurement and instrumentation, substantially more so than the TED. But it's more expensive, requires some reasonable DIY skills, and requires some technical programming and networking skills.

    For the original poster's subject here, the TED unit should work nicely.

    Best regards,

    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  17. a0128958

    a0128958 Member

    I think this WEL implementation (WEL0601) is exceptionally well done. Plus, WEL parts cost is very reasonable for this implementation, there's no monthly recurring fees, and there's one or more alarms capability.

    Very nice!

    Best regards,

  18. a0128958

    a0128958 Member

    This is hard to believe if the unit is truly in standby mode, meaning no fans or pumps of any kind are operating.

    I have 2 WaterFurnace Envision units. In heat mode, combined, they consume 29 watts when in standby mode. My guess is this is for electronics (HP units, zoning unit, 4 tstats), relay coils (HP units), and zoning damper motors (5).

    In cooling mode, standby power consumption rises to 48 watts. My guess is the increase is for the reversing valves.

    I use expanded resolution power sensors, such that my power measurement resolution is 2 watts. So I'm pretty confident the measurement is accurate.

    See the upper left corner of the screen, at WEL0043 Energy Logger , for the HVAC wattage numbers.

    Best regards,

    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  19. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Potentially they power the thermostat as well.
  20. josephparris

    josephparris Member

    Hopefully WF can respond to this phenomenon!

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