Waterfurnace or Climatemaster

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by rw1995, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. rw1995

    rw1995 Member

    I'm in the process of converting to geothermal, but have not made up my mind on the brand. Any significant pros or cons against or for the waterfurnace or climatemaster units? It will be a closed horizontal loop feeding a 4 ton unit. I'm on the fence and need a push one way or the other. Thank you.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    RW1995, congratulations on choosing geothermal. I think you’ll find you’ve made a great choice.

    To help answer your question, one very important factor is the installer/contractor. Make sure you choose a well-trained, experienced contractor for your installation. Most times, this decision is the most important one you’ll make. A good contractor can provide a well-designed system that brings peace-of-mind and dramatically lower bills. A poor contractor will negate any benefits geothermal brings through incorrect installation which invariably leads to higher operating costs and hassles.

    WaterFurnace offers dealers the highest level of training in the industry. For even greater peace-of-mind, try to find a GeoPro Master Dealer. They’ve made a commitment to geothermal excellence and have the experience to back it up. GeoPro dealers undergo extensive training and must install at least 24 units a year to maintain GeoPro status. You can rest assured this isn’t a GeoPro dealer’s first geothermal install. Only WaterFurnace has GeoPro.

    Another important consideration is warranty. WaterFurnace offers the industry’s best 10 year parts & labor allowance warranty. The loop also comes with a 55-year warranty. Climatemaster only offers a “10-year limited warranty on major refrigerant circuit components and a 5-year limited warranty on all remaining covered components.” In the unlikely event a WaterFurnace unit needs attention, WaterFurnace has 24-hour customer support available to the technician to make sure help is always just a phone call away.

    But, efficiency is really what it’s all about, isn’t it? That’s probably one reason you chose geothermal in the first place. The WaterFurnace Envision is the most efficient heating & cooling system on earth … period. Although others make this claim, only WaterFurnace has the ARI certificate to prove it (ARI is the company responsible for efficiency certification in the HVAC industry) . ALWAYS ask to see the ARI certificate of performance. The Envision is certified at 30EER and 5.1 COP on a closed loop system - which is by far the most common type of loop. Climatemaster likes to advertise its open loop ratings to appear to be more efficient, but the Envision NDH038 actually rates at 32.1 EER and 6.5 COP for open loop. Bottom line: you’ll save the most on bills with WaterFurnace.

    Another thing to consider: If you want to get started quickly, you must wait up to 6 weeks with Climatemaster if the dealer doesn’t have your unit in stock. WaterFurnace has a THREE-DAY turnaround time to ship products. This is important because if you need parts or accessories, would you rather wait 6 weeks for Climatemaster or 3 days for Waterfurnace?

    WaterFurnace is the most recognized and respected name in geothermal. (Click here for a google news search for “WaterFurnace” and then click here for a google new search for “Climatemaster”- you’ll find that the news community is buzzing about WaterFurnace.) WaterFurnace has a history of leadership in the residential geothermal market and is leading the way to the future. They have so many industry firsts: The first R410-A geothermal system, the first technology for a forced air geothermal system that also provides radiant heat, the world’s first 300EER 5COP system.

    WaterFurnace has the best efficiencies. They have the best products. They have the best trained dealers. They have the best turn-around times. They have the best warranties and the best technical support.

    Go to waterfurnace.com to learn more and to find your local dealer. It’s easy to see that WaterFurnace is the smarter choice.
     
  3. Ona

    Ona Member

    rw1995 ~
    While I appreciate timlitton's glowing advertisement for WaterFurnace, I want to emphasize a key point that he (or she) made, it is most important that your contractor is good. You want to be sure that your contractor has experience and training that is required to design a truly efficient system. If I was in a situation where my geo contractors were limited and I felt that the ClimateMaster contractor was much better than the WaterFurnace contractor, I would go with climatemaster. I personally do not believe that there is that much of a difference in the product that one would be automatically discounted.

    Having said that, I just had a geo system installed (Finished in September) and I did chose WaterFurnace. The primary reason I chose waterfurnace was because of the contractor, but just like timlitton wrote, I was also very impressed with the envision model and the efficiency it provided.

    Good Luck in your search!
     
  4. cdhand

    cdhand Guest

    1 thing you may want to do

    I bought an extra water tank when I had my system installed last year. It would have worked out much better if I had put in an electric on demand water tank. I must say that the envision has been better than I was told by far. My power bill went down 33% on the total bill. If it is installed right and your temperature never goes below 0 you will not need the heat strips there is a switch on your unit that will cut them off that is important if you change the temperature at different times you may cause the heat strips to come on, to save money you don't want that to happen. also by taking off my hot water heater I was able to add my waterfurnace to my backup generator. For me that was no small thing. I would say that for me this was the best thing I have ever bought. The comfort in my house is much better every room is the same no hot or cold air nothing to look at or hear outside.
     
  5. GeoGuy25

    GeoGuy25 Member

    One thing to keep in mind

    ClimateMaster has almost 60% of the geothermal market share. They did not obtain this by building a sub par piece of equipment. They choose to not have the longer warrenty and keep initial cost down for consumers. Plus look at what has been done recently by ClimateMaster and them alone with the federal tax credit. They have dumoed millions of dollars or their money to get the 2,000$ insentive passed and all the other manufactures are reaping the benifits of it.
     
  6. keithmckinley

    keithmckinley New Member

    try hydro-temp. I've had great sucess with them. They make some of the units for the other two.
     
  7. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Are you saying that hydo-temp makes heat pumps for Water Furnace and Climate Master??
     
  8. Rgausman

    Rgausman Member


    Huh... Are you sure of that statement?
     
  9. GeoGuy25

    GeoGuy25 Member

    Not a true statment

    I am sorry to say but I would check my sources if you think hydro temp makes any ClimateMaster or Waterfurnace units.
     
  10. Geotech

    Geotech Member

    all three are competators

    :eek: Hydrotemp does not make units or parts for Waterfurance and I would not think this would be true for Climate Master.:cool:
     
  11. UR12

    UR12 New Member

    for what it's worth, i live in southwest pa. west of pittsburgh.
    i am planning on building a 2600 sf house.
    i drove an hour to ohio to talk with a "geo pro" and discuss how he does installs....he told me that my horizontal loops would be between 3 1/2 to 4 feet deep.i questioned him about the depth which to me does not seem deep enough and he proceded to tell me that anything deeper would cost me more because he would have to shore the trench walls for his workers and that he compensates for the shallow trench by having longer trenches..


    i know i won't be using him.....i guess i am just trying to say even a "title" doesn't make them a qualified installer.
     
  12. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I am asked this question all the time about water pumping equipment and also geo thermal units. My stock answer is that you need to buy the hardware from the guy/ company that you trusted enough to hire in the first place, that they are familiar with, and that they service, warranty, and back up to you the consumer.

    I personally prefer fhp units because the guy that is the regional sales rep is a good friend and I buy them wholesale. That being said I am also a graduate of a 12 step program that cured me of saying the phrase "climate dissaster" just because it rymed and it made people tense when you said it.

    Climate master has definitely won the war of distribution and marketing coupled with what I would call "fair pricing" in my market and it without a doubt the most frequently installed unit.
     
  13. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    UR12

    You did not drive into Ohio very far.

    We come to you if you can stand the trip.
     
  14. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Steelers versus the Browns

    It use to mean something.....Maybe he thought he would be driving into a hostile environment, but doesn't remember Art sold us out and setback the Brown's tradition 20 years....but I digress.

    The deeper the trench the more stable the temperature, summer or winter.
    OSHA mandates have crimped the dept of trenches on a cost basis, but for this application, a long pole will allow remote placement of these lines without anyone climbing into a deep hole. Simply make the tie-ins at 4 feet, not the loops.
     
  15. UR12

    UR12 New Member

    gabby,

    you are probably right,
    i didn't think i was far enough north to find a brown's season ticket holder:).



    mark,


    i drove to the nearest water furnace "GEO PRO"...my point was the man had the title but i think i would have been like many others here i read about with a loop that wasn't designed/installed properly,


    waterpirate,


    you are in the business it seems, but i like many others are not. i'm trying to find that guy to do just that....it is nice to find a site like this and be able to pick up the knowledge offered




    :) Go Steelers :)
     
  16. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    wholesale

    UR12,

    Do not give up easily, there is allways someone looking to turn over a piece of harware for 10% markup for an "out the door sale". Ovwer on green building talk they talk a lot about the unit you should not buy ever.
     
  17. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    This is a new home

    Rehau has some great ideas for using you foundation as your loop field.

    I like comfort maker water to water with radiant floors and high velocity chilled water cooling. We have one running out of a pond in Valley City, OH a little south west of Brownstown.
     
  18. Ona

    Ona Member

    Go with your gut

    UR12 ~ I would like to emphasize for you to go with your gut. The WaterFurnace installer that was referred to me by the regional guy wanted to install a 6 ton unit in my home which is 1950 sq ft. Something just didn't seem right. I got other estimates and none of them called for a 6 ton unit.

    So much for that referral.

    I have several pages of numbers and notes of geo people that I called during my search. It was a long process but if I was going to spend this kind of money I wasn't going to settle for someone I just didn't trust.

    Here is a link to the my geothermal install timeline if you're interested:
    Our GeoThermal Timeline | GeoChoices | Ona

    Even though only 3 contractors did a walk through, I had others give me estimates over the phone.
     
  19. gabby

    gabby Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I enjoyed looking at your progression. Did they leave in the top 20 feet of casing?
     
  20. firemouth7

    firemouth7 New Member

    Great Input from everyone here. I am owner of Wallace Mechanical in Edmond, Ok. We have used Water Furnace and Climate Master and have had success with both, reason being we put the stuff in right and have qualified installers and tech's, that is the key. If a contractor hesitates on providing referrals then you should look elswhere. 25% of our GEO work is being called out to correct the installation issues of the "Cheaper Guys" who are more concerned with profit margin and number of jobs sold, not quality.
     

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