Water Furance Envision Problems

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Geocub, Aug 2, 2011.

  1. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes it is time for another pro.
  2. WF_Inc

    WF_Inc Member


    We have been in contact with your contractor in regards to your concerns, and he has informed us that the WaterFurnace unit is operating to manufacturer specifications. According to your contractor, after the blower door test, he agreed to seal around the boots; however, there were additional areas that needed to be addressed. Have these additional items been addressed?
  3. Geocub

    Geocub New Member

    I asked the contractor what else needs to be sealed, he said he did not know, just get up in the attic and look.

    How do we know there is still a leakage issue? There was no test to determine where the leaks were during the blower door test. There has not been a follow up test.

    I am surprised that a blower door was done after the unit was installed. The new unit should have been quoted with the house as is. Good thing to do, but afterwards? In your program the contractor used to determine the load, he inserts what he feels is the quality of construction. He bumped mine down to average. Should this allow for leakage? What was the blower door test results and what numerical value equates to average?

    When you say the unit is operatiing properly, I assume you mean just the unit itself and not the loop. Please clarify. Based on the feedback from others in this forum, the loop is suspect. Correct me if I am wrong, but the unit could be removing X amount of heat from the entering water temperature, but because the EWT is too high, it just cannot remove enough.

    As I said before the unit maintains temperature inside the house when it is below 90 degrees outside. Since the additonal loop was installed (last week of July) and the adjustment period (1 month), it is now in the 80's here. So I can't really judge how the unit is doing.

    That said, I do not want to wait until next summer and find out the unit is still not performing. It makes sense to me to do another test to see what the entering and output water temperatures are now. If the blower door test truely is an issue, we need to do another test where the specific leaks are identified.

    My air source heat pump was 2 or 2.5 tons (Luxaire EASH-F024sa) and only did the upstairs. Now we are using a 2 ton unit to heat and cool the upstairs and downstairs.

    While I appreciate your communication, you basically have just bumped me back to the contractor each time. Based on my experience so far, this will be my last Water Furnace Unit and I will not recommend them to anyone else. I will continue to try to resolve this with the contractor, if it does not work out, then I will go to the state board for their input.

    I have attached photos of my sink issue on the last loop that was installed.
  4. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Re-reading many of your posts and viewing the latest pics, I think it is possible that with good compaction on the new loop you may see improved performance next summer.
    Since only time will tell, I suggest you document everything, monitor system (entering and leaving water and air temperatures) and keep us posted.

    I also suggest you postpone acting on my advice to call in an idependant loop pro. Follow advice to tighten up your home as ultimately it is beneficial regardless of system performance and make sure (or have installer make sure) new loop is properly compacted and backfilled.

    I think it is reasonable at this point to wait. If we do not see performance we would expect based on load and water and air temps, we may re-suggest independant evaluation.

    Good luck,
  5. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    "I asked the contractor what else needs to be sealed, he said he did not know, just get up in the attic and look"

    How much duct work is in the attic?What kind of insulation is on the duct work?

  6. WF_Inc

    WF_Inc Member


    We spoke with your contractor and he has informed us that the areas that need to be addressed are located in your attic. If you need further information, we would suggest contacting your contractor to discuss the areas that need to be addressed.
  7. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Geocub wrote: "While I appreciate your communication, you basically have just bumped me back to the contractor each time."

    Followed by-

    Let's hope Geocub didn't break his computer or pull clumps of hair out of his head.

  8. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    Load numbers don't seem right to me, just a home owner here. North Carolina is probably on the verge of cooling dominant. Why such low numbers for heat gain?

    "just get up there and look", sounds like an attitude. Pushing the focus away from the loop which is still a bit suspect. Even if the trench was 48"wide the 4 pipes are only 16" apart. I hope over time the soil will become connected to the pipe better.

  9. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    It is counterintuitive but many areas that need significantly more heating than cooling still have a higher heating btu requirement because of the higher delta T between outdoor temp and set point.

    For example a 100* day outside with a 75* setpoint inside is a 25* delta T.
    A 30* day outside with a 68* setpoint is a 38* delta T. Ergo design temps may require more heating btus than cooling even though cooling is the more frequent of the 2 requirements.

    As a side note, this is why we don't encourage 3 ton where there's a 3 ton heating but a 2 ton cooling load. The peak heating requirement is infrequent and the larger compressor will cost more to operate during a lengthy cooling season.
  10. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    Thank you Joe,

    And everyone else, I learn so much here!!

  11. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Indoor / outdoor delta-T doesn't tell the whole load story - humidity adds to the cooling load.

    That said, Joe is quite right - a unit oversized for cooling will run less efficiently and comfortably all summer and eat up the savings obtained by cutting some aux strip use on the coldest days.
  12. Geocub

    Geocub New Member


    I have seen no savings at all during the winter, this unit is actually way more expensive than my 1994 luxaire heat pumt. It does do upstais and downstairs, but I made the decision to go with this unit because it would do both and save money.
    it has hit 89-90 here in the Carolina's a few days and when it does, nothing has changed. temperature in the house will start climbing and the unit will run most of the day on stage two. It will cool back down around 9:00. I have it set on 74, it will climb to 77 and stay there for 4-5 hours.

    If you remember, last year the cotractor added an additional line and said it would take 30 days for the ground temps to settle. but, after 30 days we did not get into the 90 degree weather anymore.

    So I wanted to give everyone an update and open this back up for discussion. Can I check the incoming and outgoing water temps with a pyrometer or infared?

    Any suggestions are appreciated, Water Furnace has not provided any help.
  13. WF_Inc

    WF_Inc Member


    It is our understanding that a blower door test was done, and some issues within the home were identified. According to your contractor, they have returned and sealed the duct work; however, there were additional areas, as noted in the blower door test results. Have these additional areas been addressed?
  14. Geocub

    Geocub New Member


    I did not recieve a copy of the blower door test. Even if I had, I feel this should have been taken into account with the initial load calculation. Keep in mind that the house was previously cooled by a 14 year old Luxaire heat pump and as bad as I hate to admit, it was more comfortable and less expensive.

    Also keep in mind it was a water furnace tech that visited and he recommended an additional loop be installed. The contractor did install it, which I appreciate. I also appreciate the visit from the tech, can he return and revaluate the situation?
  15. WF_Inc

    WF_Inc Member


    We apologize for our delay in response. At this time, we are waiting on the blower door test report and the site visit report. Once we have received this information, we will be in contact with you.

    As for a site visit from the factory, we will be more than happy to discuss this once we have all of the requested documents.
  16. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    Page 1 !!
    QUOTE "Trench was approx. 2' wide, dug with Trac hoe."END QUOTE. 4 pipes would be approx 8" apart! No wonder the fluid gets over 100*F. Along with that an add on loop 100' shorter then the other two. How can we know if fluid is flowing in all loops?

    Load short form shows cooling dry bulb temp of 89*F, Seams low for N. Carolina.

    Duct work in attic. Sealed, insulated?

  17. Geocub

    Geocub New Member

    New duck work in the attic installed by the contractor to bring up to code. Attic is insulated with R-30

    Water Furnace, I am still looking for help with this matter. Can your tech who recommended installing the extra loop make another visit?
  18. WF_Inc

    WF_Inc Member


    We have been in contact with your contractor again requesting additional information on the blower door test that was completed in your home. Unfortunately, at this time, we are still waiting to receive this information.

    As for a site visit, we do have field technicians available for a site visit to ensure that the WaterFurnace equipment is operating properly. If your contractor feels that a site visit is necessary, please have them submit a site visit request. If they have questions about how to do this, they are more than welcome to contact us for further assistance.
  19. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    geo cub, anything new?
  20. Geocub

    Geocub New Member

    Sorry for the delay and thanks for asking, unit is still underperforming when the temperatures are 90+ outside. I asked the contractor to ask the factory tech to get involved and he did. they did a site evaluation about 2 weeks ago so waiting on what they have to say. I reviewed the other two qoutes and their load calculations are different, both recommended a larger unit. If we cannot agree on what is need, I will file a complaint with the State board of contractors. I just need a second opinion.I will wait to hear the results, The contractor is a stand up guy and has went the extra mile to check things out, i am just tired of it being 77-78 degrees in my house when the thermoset is set on 74.

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