Water Discharge Valve - help finding correct one

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by RobD, Aug 13, 2011.

  1. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Hi Folks

    I am located in Ottawa, ON Canada. I recently purchased a home with an open loop Climatemaster system. It is 17 years old.

    I had a Geothermal technician check the system before purchasing, and he said the in/out temps & pressures, compressor, reversing valve, etc were all working good. There is a valve on the discharge line that needed to be replaced, and the seller of the house said he would have it replaced.

    Due to other problems, I ended up changing the water pump, and installed a constant pressure pump. This pump indicates on a control panel when it is running. I noticed that it runs constantly, even when the furnace is off and the valve to the house is off. I can hear a noise from this discharge valve all the time.

    I had a look at the valve, and it does not seem right to me. It is used for lawn sprinklers. It is an Irritrol 2400TF. I will try and insert a picture.

    I have a called a couple of service companies, and they are quoting me from $500-$850 for a new "Bellimo - like" valve, plus installation. I know in Canada we pay more for parts, but this seems a little high.

    I can order one in the US, and I see them for around $200-$300 dollars. The problem is that I do not know which one to buy. There are many models, and I was hoping you good folks in this forum might be able to help me.

    I have a Climatemaster - VE042GSSSLTDESA. Specs on the label are:
    Source - 9.0 GPM
    Sink 1300 CFM
    C.O.P 3.2
    EER 14.0

    The water hose is 1.5" outside diameter. I think the valve is a 1" valve.

    I also need a contactor on the aux heater. I have been quoted $250 for the part. I contacted the Manufacturer and and it sells for $13. I found it from a retailer for $30. This gives you an idea what we are dealing with here. I understand cost, profit, etc, but this seems a little excessive.

    If I could determine a valve that would work, I would at least buy the valve and have someone install it.


  2. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Generally speaking a repair bill will represent the cost of driving to your home purchasing the part and installing it....... twice. Don't forget to add warranties to the cost of doing business. We often get to do jobs twice due to part failure for which we would otherwise be uncompensated.
    If you purchase the part yourself, then you assume the responsibility for the warranty instead of paying for one.

    Lot's of watervalves will work. It is a common failure item. Might be a good one to learn to do yourself.

  3. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Hi and welcome,
    The irrigation type valves are the norm in my area as experiance has born out that the super expensive valves have the same rate of failure or slightly more than the inexpensive ones. I agree that this is a repair you should get familiar with. I would also include the installation of a pair of isolation valves to make this maintanance a quick and easy job in the future.
  4. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Thank you! This was the price of the valve only.

    I think I will try it myself. If it is a common failure item, then I better learn how.

  5. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Thank you!

    That sounds like great advice. I have been reading, and it seems it is mainly a matter of getting the proper flow rate (1.5 - 2 GPM), and having it shut the water off.

    I thought it may be a very particular valve.

    I will give it a try.

  6. jml

    jml New Member

    Just a homeowner from NW Ont here..the pro's have already given you pretty good advice....and I'm sure they'll chime in if I'm really out to lunch.

    The Belimo's are insanely expensive for valves compared to other brands..I'd guess that a $500 one might include an adjustable flow control valve that you likely don't need.

    I'm guessing here that you have something like a Dole or Hays flow control valve mounted inline with the irrigation valve. The irrigation valve opens when 24v is supplied from the thermostat's Y1 line (or from the aux terminal on the Climatemaster CXM/DXM control board), and the valve springs closed when this voltage is shut off. The flow control valve is what makes only the correct amount of water for your heat pump flow through this line, instead of letting all the water flow that your well pump can provide push through the line.

    If you have a separate flow control valve, you likely just need a low voltage valve that will open when voltage is applied and close when the voltage is shut off, and can handle up to 9gpm flow rates. Don't get a valve designed only for use in closed-loop heating systems with boilers/radiators...get one meant for open-loop domestic water or irrigation water or geothermal use.

    For $25 or so it looks like you can get something like this from any nearby Home Depot, Home Hardware, or Rona that should do the job:
    Orbit Watermaster | 1 In. Fnpt Auto Inline Vlv Wfc; Gbx | Home Depot Canada

    For $150 or so plus shipping online, or with a bit of a markup above that from your local plumbing supply stores like Emco/Western or Wolesley you can get a fancier slow-closing Taco geothermal valve with something called an "end-switch" built in. But you likely don't need that. A Taco model 557G is a 1" sweat (soldered-connection) valve rated for up to 10GPM.
  7. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Thank you so much! That is a great help.

    I replied to the first two posts, but for some reason they have not showed up. I hope this one shows up.

    There is no other flow control on the discharge line. Just the irrigation valve. No other valves, drains, nothing. From what I have been reading, I am seriously questioning the ability of this unit to work properly.

    The previous owner was using a pellet stove to heat. I was wondering why. I am beginning to think I better get this checked out more.

    Your post is great timing. I was just about to check the voltage in the line, and determine whether it is NO or NC.

    I really appreciate the help.

  8. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Thank you all!

    I have been replying, but I have been using the "quote" button, and it seems that it does not work. Or I am doing something wrong.

    I will try this. I hope it posts.

    I appreciate all the great responses. It is a huge help.

    All I have on the discharge line is that one valve. There are no other drain cocks, shutoff valves, or anything on the outside of the unit, except for the main inlet valve just after the pump. Which I have turned off all the time now.

    You post was great timing. I am going to check the voltages tonight. And have a look at those valves. I guess I need a flow control of some sort, along with a shut off.

  9. RobD

    RobD New Member

    I seem to be having trouble replying to this thread.


    Admin Comment
    Nope, just behind on moderation. Your future posts will go live immediately.
  10. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Thank you all for the great comments. I have been replying, but for some reason they were not posting. I will try again. I hope this posts.

    The only valve I have is the one in the picture. There is no other flow control, drain valve, ball valve, nothing on the discharge line.

    The only valve at all is one on the inlet just after the water pump. I use it to turn off the water supply, because the water flows 24/7.

    I will check the voltages tonight.

    Again, I really appreciate the support. I was very excited about having this GeoThermal system, but I am having real doubts that it is working right.

    Thank you again for all the help.

    I will look into those valves.


    Admin Comment
    Your future posts will go live immediately.
  11. jml

    jml New Member

    Two thoughts.

    1) The irrigation valve may have an adjustable flow rate control built in to dial up or down the GPM. - see examples here: Sprinkler System Watering - Valves
    (although I doubt that these sort of irrigation valves would really provide precision flow rate control across common household water pressure fluctuations)

    2) If the irrigation valve doesn't have an adjustment for flow rate, note that a hays or dole flow rate control valve looks just like a short threaded pipe fitting with an arrow, a model number and a GPM number stamped on the side - you can see in this document what a simple hayes model 2305 looks like as an example for what you might expect to find: http://www.haysfluidcontrols.com/Documents/23mflo.pdf
  12. RobD

    RobD New Member

    I looked for that after it was mentioned. I followed the discharge line all the way to the wall. There are no fittings of any kind. The previous owner was supposed to have it replaced, so maybe he put the wrong valve on. There is no flow adjustment. Just a little screw, which I think is a bleeder screw.

    I will either put on a valve with flow adjustment, or one without and a Hayes control valve. This is exactly the advice I was hoping for. I really appreciate it. Thanks!

    I was looking at some diagrams, and they have shut off valves on each side of the flow valve. Would too many pieces in the line start to make noise, or affect the flow rate?
  13. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Thank you Phil!

    This forum is terrific!

  14. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    valve is generally NC and 24 volts.
  15. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Thank you! I checked it last night, and that is exactly what the voltage is.

    I am going to look for a flow control valve. I see on my label that it says "Source 9.0 GPM". Is that from the pump, or is that what the unit demands? Or both? I thought my unit is a 3 ton, which from what I read means that I should be looking at 5-6 GPM.

  16. jml

    jml New Member

    9 GPM is likely what your unit needs flowing through it in heating mode to keep the heat exchanger or discharge line from freezing up in the middle of winter. 3 GPM per ton for open loop in Ontario seems entirely reasonable. I'd guess that your new well pump is sized to provide more GPM than that to your house so that you have enough water for both the heat pump and other domestic water use.

    Note that if you have a separate flow rate control valve not built in to the irrigation valve, it could be anywhere on either the water in or water out lines...maybe somewhere on the line between your well pressure tank and the heat pump, for example.
  17. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Oh boy...I sure hope the pump is big enough. I asked him for a good pump, that would exceed the requirements so when I change the furnace in the next few years I won't be limited by the water supply. He looked at the furnace specs, and the well reports.

    I think I will have a look at the pump details, although I guess it is kind of late.

    There is nothing after the shut off valve for the furnace, but now that you mention it there was an inline valve of some sort before the old pressure tank. When they installed the new tank, that was one of the left over pieces. There was a whole manifold of parts. I will have a closer look to see if that may have been the flow control.

    However, would it be wise to limit the flow to the "furnace requirement" prior to the valve that turns off the water to the furnace? Would that would limit the supply to the rest of the house when the furnace is running? I may be mixed up.

    As it stands right now, the discharge valve is always open, I don't see any flow control, and there is lots of water pressure in the house. So I think I am OK.

    I do need to get this flow right though. I think I will call my plumber who installed the pump and ask him if he saw a flow control valve anywhere.

  18. RobD

    RobD New Member

    Working - Thank you

    Well, I finally have it working, thanks to the folks here. I really appreciate the time you take to answer our questions.

    Now I think I will work on getting gauges in place to monitor this unit regularly.

  19. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    At then end

    I'm going to just add this at the end(?) in case others pick up this thread in the future.

    This is a very common set-up when marrying domestic water requirements with heat pump requirements. Ideally you have two separate systems that allow you to ignore pressure related concerns; optimize a well pump for energy savings; reduce flow limitation requirements; and simplify plumbing requirements.

    Economics usually has one trying to make the best of their existing domestic system.
  20. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Economics is the main reason folks have open loop anymore.


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