Warranty cost question

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by tonyg, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. tonyg

    tonyg New Member

    i need to understand if I'm over reacting or not. My 7 series got an E5 code. I had installer come out to fix. They ran system checked actual readings, checked pressures, loop etc and couldn't figure out issue. They call tech support and 5 minutes later the tech says the logs are erratic as most likely thermistor and to replace. They don't have the exact part but use similar sensor out if truck that they wire up. Since the repair (1 month) it's been working great. Then I get $500 warranty bill. $35 for parts and the rest for labor. I initially thought it would all be covered by water furnace. Obviously I'm trying to figure out if this is normal or correct procedure. Thanks for the help and advice
  2. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    For me, I get parts under warranty and a nominal labour allowance.

    Now, between-the-lines stuff. I can often get a local part quicker - say a capacitor or such. So I'll often charge for that type of part where time is far more important. And the labor allowance is pretty nominal - and is generally shown as a discount on my future purchases. For my clients that I installed the system on, I often just eat the costs. For service on other clients' units, I'll likely bill and refund anything I get back under warranty.
  3. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Did they guys who serviced the unit install it?

    Warranty is warranty. WF covers the 7 series with a 10 year warranty, and a 5 year labor allowance. Not sure why your installer charged you for it.
  4. tonyg

    tonyg New Member

    Yeah I am confused too....it was the company I used to install it.
    Again this is about as clear cut of a WF issue as there is. I will continue discussions with them. Should I call WF to discuss also?
    I see there is some info on my warranty certificate.
  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    WF gives the dealer a labor allowance, the dealer might charge you more. Parts are covered 100%. What does your contract with the dealer say?
  6. wjwolf

    wjwolf New Member

    Good luck with water furnace stepping up to the plate on warranty. I am dealing with them Now Regarding a leak in my closed loop system.
  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Was WF pipe distributed pipe used by your installer? Why would you expect a heat pump manufacturer be warranty your close loop system? That should be the issue for your installer.
  8. wjwolf

    wjwolf New Member

    A company out of Northern Indiana by the name of Crystal Valley installed my water furnace system who I also paid to have the loop put in by a company named Loopmaster. Loopmaster is no longer in business who gave the 50-year warranty. However, when researching the company loopmaster The Dun & Bradstreet reports show the parent company to have been... Water furnace.
  9. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    OK....have you checked the terms of the warranty by Loopmaster?

    And what has Waterfurnace (WFI) to do with Loopmaster. Waterfurnace is a heat pump manufacturer, they build a box. One component of the system. It is like a your air conditioner in your car made by ..... Bosch. Now if you now have a hole in gas tank (made by the tank manufacturer) in your Chevy, you don't blame BOSCH, which made your A/C.
    You call Chevy.
  10. wjwolf

    wjwolf New Member

    A 50-year warranty on a closed loop system is just that... 50 years. You're exactly right in your scenario, and water furnace is the Chevy in the example. Possibly water furnace got involved in an area that was not their expertise? Does that mean they should no longer stand up to their work?
  11. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    No, Crystal Valley is your contract you had a contract with, which is the Chevy in this example.

    And the 50 year warranty is limited, to defects in material or manufacturing, and you need to send in the defeat pipe in order for them to have the chance to evaluate this. Do you have any evidence on what he cause for the leak is?

    WF is thus far very good in honoring their warranty, we never had issues with them.

    No idea what the legal contract between Loopmaster and WF is, but usually a parent company is not responsible or liable for warranty work.

    Your contract is usually with your installer. They sold you the warranty, correct?
  12. wjwolf

    wjwolf New Member

    Sticking with your Automotive example, when consumers purchase their vehicles the individual dealerships do not obviously provide the warranty but rather the manufacturer. In our situation that would be loopmaster or the parent company water furnace. When Chevrolet shut down the Geo line or General Motors shut down they're Pontiac line they still stood behind those warranties as the parent company. Water furnace should step up to the plate when they closed-loop master.
    As for knowing where the leak is, everything above ground has been checked by an independent geothermal professional who has found nothing leaking. His suggestion was that water furnace be brought into play to investigate the loop in the ground. At this point nothing has been dug up.
    As for an individual contractor to be responsible for a closed loop system that water furnace ( or a subsidiary of water furnace )having installed would not make sense as contractors come and go particularly individually owned ones. Water furnace does not fall into that category which makes consumers feel more confident in their being in business during the 50 years that the warranty stands for.
  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Again, your contract is with Crystal Valley, who was your contractor, and subcontracted the loop out to loopmaster, which appears to be a entity owned by WF, which does not mean liability for WF.
    So do you know if the pipe underground, as part of the loop field or the fusions underground are the reason for any leak?
  14. moey

    moey Member

    Be glad your only out in the 100s not the 1000s of dollars. A 50 year warranty is a joke as is the warranty on the pipe. If it didn't leak right away they can claim negligence on everyone else involved in the transaction. Good luck proving a pipe was not made properly.

    Water furnace does not have to worry about bad press compared to a auto company in your example. Most people would say Water who?
  15. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Again, WF does not make pipe, they are just the distributor of the material. Could you please post your warranty certificate to show everyone what is warranted so we can put this discussion to rest. Thank you!
  16. wjwolf

    wjwolf New Member

    You will have a difficult time convincing us of your position particularly with the example of the automotive industry that you used. The industries that I deal with do not see it your way and hopefully water furnace won't either lest a judge need to decide for them.
    As for where the leak is located the only thing the outside consultant could determine was that it was definitely not above ground. Rice paper has been used underneath of any area where there could have been a possibility of a small leak and nothing was found. All indications are that we should have gone with a vertical Loop rather than the horizontal, but space was not an issue and horizontal seemed the way to go at the time.
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If you buy a car from Chevy, through their designated dealers, your contract is with Chevy.

    Simple question: Who is your contract with? And who gives the warranty? And what does your warranty certificate state?
    You keep dodging the answer to that question.

    You keep telling us here that your leak is not inside. No doubt here, since in the rare occasion a loop leaks, leaks are at the fusion joints due to improper fusion.

    So why would a vertical loop have been better? I'll be happy to help, but what you state here does not make much sense.
  18. wjwolf

    wjwolf New Member

    You seem to be trying to dig yourself out of a corner. I buy a car from Victory Chevrolet and my warranty is with the manufacturer which is Chevrolet. I purchased my geothermal system through Crystal Valley with the installer of the loop and apparently the manufacturer of the line being water furnace themselves. Not only that, now our attorneys inform us that water furnace at that time had training sessions for individuals that worked for their Loop installers. One example being loopmaster themselves who were owned by water furnace.
    My only purpose for chiming in on this forum was that many of your members seem to have done business with a loop installer that is no longer in business. This is the case with mine, however after digging into it I find out that water furnace themselves pulled the plug on their inferior installer. Does that mean they should not be responsible for standing behind the warranty? How about the training?
    I seem to have hit a nerve with you so I don't want to irritate it any longer, but I have no idea how anyone can tell where the leak is in the loop without digging it up. My only thought about going vertical versus horizontal was once again after reading many of your Forum comments and the problems that have been had with the horizontal ones. This is also the feeling from Crystal Valley my original installer. They have had numerous problems with horizontal loops and virtually none with the vertical ones. They also claim to have no problems with their open-loop systems either.
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Let me ensure you, I am in no corner....;)

    No answer yet what your warranty certificate says, or with whom your contract is, am I right?

    Let me ensure you, WF does not manufacture pipes.

    Nor do I own the forum, or people here are "my members".
    Some people here chime in to help people in need for help or information. But some are resistant to advise.
    So yes, WF might have given training to loop installers or had ownership in a company installing loops. That does not imply liability or warranty.

    Don't worry about my nerves, I am just telling you that if there is a leak, it is most of the time at the fusions in the header pipe. You reading that horizontals have more issues than vertical is not really very scientific either. Buried HDPE pipe has a very long life expectancy, in the hundred of years, no matter if the buried vertically or horizontally.

    And indeed, open systems are very little prone to leakage .....:D
  20. mtrentw

    mtrentw Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I see why you want to associate warranty with equipment manufacturer when comparing to Chevy, but remember that Chevy was 100% responsible for production of that vehicle in Detroit or Mexico or wherever. "Victory Chevrolet" is just selling a corporate product. The only work done by victory Chevrolet was to install floormats at a cost of $300. With Waterfurnace, they make a box. The box doesn't work anywhere but in a test lab under designed installed conditions. It is up to designer/installer to get those conditions right. Designer and installer are taking a spec'd piece of equipment and installing it in a system. You said yourself that you bought a geothermal SYSTEM and not just a geothermal heat pump. They sell you the system, not Waterfurnace.

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