Variable Speed Compressor, on demand hot water

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by docjenser, Mar 24, 2012.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Got this today,seem similar with the Waterfurnce 7 series, all coming this summer.

    ClimateMaster Breaks the 40 EER Barrier
    March 23, 2012

    ClimateMaster announced an efficiency breakthrough with the introduction of the Trilogy™ 40 series, the first geothermal heat pumps ever certified by the Air Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) to exceed 40 EER at ground-loop (GLHP) conditions.

    The revolutionary new Trilogy™ 40 utilizes variable speed technology to provide an extremely wide range of heating and cooling capacities, with the ability to perfectly match loads to as low as 30% of maximum. In addition, patent-pending Q-Mode™ technology produces year-round domestic hot water on demand, even when space conditioning is not required.

    The Trilogy 40 Q-Mode series is the outcome of a five year collaboration between ClimateMaster and Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), which was sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) Building Technologies Program. Based on field tests and analysis by ORNL, the Trilogy 40 Q-Mode can save 55-65% of annual energy use and cost for space conditioning and water heating in residential applications versus new minimum efficiency (SEER 13) conventional systems and 30-35% versus current state-of-the-art two-stage geothermal heat pumps.

    "ClimateMaster has a solid track record of leadership and innovation since its founding in 1957," said Daniel Ellis, President. "We are very proud to continue that legacy with the launch of the new Trilogy 40, which is 33% more efficient than any other geothermal heat pump available and the only one with Q-Mode technology to provide year-round water heating."

    In addition to efficiency, the Trilogy 40 Q-Mode delivers unsurpassed comfort and humidity control by precisely matching its capacity to the heating and cooling load. For installing and servicing contractors, it also offers the latest technology to configure and diagnose the system electronically using communicating controls and sensors that monitor every critical aspect of system operation to ensure peak performance.

    "The Trilogy 40 Q-Mode represents a major breakthrough in comfort and efficiency," said John Bailey, Sr. Vice President of Sales and Marketing at ClimateMaster. "With variable speed fan, pump and compressor (Trilogy technology) plus four operating modes (Q-Mode technology), it far exceeds the capabilities of any other HVAC unit on the market today. Plus, it can completely eliminate the use of auxiliary heat even in far Northern climates."

    The Trilogy 40 Q-Mode series is currently in limited production, with full availability scheduled for late this year.

    ClimateMaster, Inc. is the leading manufacturer of geothermal and water-source heat pumps, which are considered to be the most energy efficient and environmentally friendly type of heating and cooling systems available on the market today. Headquartered in Oklahoma City, Ok, ClimateMaster, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of LSB Industries, Inc. whose common stock is traded over the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol LXU. For more information, visit Welcome to Climatemaster.
  2. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    This is exciting news for all of us, but how will we address the variable flow rates to go with the variable speed compressor? Variable speed pumps would be the natural choice, but the controls for them?????
  3. Blake Clark

    Blake Clark Member

    Really good point, Eric. Unless you can dial down the pumping energy, real world COP won't be nearly as good as it is on paper at 30% loads.

    Here's how I'd control it, in theory anyway. Set up a feedback loop between the pump controller and the delta T across the hx. Lets say design is for a 5 degree delta t. Pump speed constantly adjusts so that a 5 degree delta t is maintained between flow in and flow out.

    Would anyone buy a little black box for 299.99 that would do that? :D
  4. jrh

    jrh Member

    If you have not switched your pumping strategy to variable speed ECM technology like the Phoenix GV flow center, than your already behind. If you have, then congratulations, just set it to run on delta T
  5. Blake Clark

    Blake Clark Member

    Damn! There goes my 99 cent profit!

    Hmmm...I run a semi-open maybe I can still cater to the 0.00001 percent of customers running standing column with a new 7 series :eek: I'll be rich
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2012
  6. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Although I disagree with your comment. I would like to be educated. lets do a cost review that looks at initial costs as well as the money saved vs traditional circ that is not oversized and has no other controls than the contacter in the unit.

  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    How do you set a wilo stratos to delta T? Did the guys at Phoenix Energy Supply splice a temperature sensor into the controls? It would not surprise me.
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Not sure if this is a really big deal. A constant speed pump like the 26-99 runs for about $75/year, and that does not change. Now, good point, that doubles with dual pumps.

    I don't know if you guys recognized that it will have an on demand water heater. That for me is the biggest change. Like the Euro models have. Think about it: No more desuperheaters, no more dual tanks, no more electric supplement heat for DHW. Just pipe it into a tank and you are done. All year DHW with the efficiency of the heatpump.
  9. Blake Clark

    Blake Clark Member

    Sure, $75 in pumping energy isn't too bad - but my entire 6 month New Hampshire heating bill this winter was only $310. As unit COP goes up, pumping energy will take an even bigger bite (percentage wise) of overall cost of operation.

    With my system, flow is the same for stage 1 and stage 2. Even though the unit COP is higher in stage 1, my total system COP is almost a wash between the two. That's with a 30% turndown - with a 70% turndown I'd have to see a HUGE jump in unit COP to justify pumping at full flow.

    However - since most of my hot water is on propane, I'm sure I'd come out ahead on my utility bills regardless of constant vs variable flow. Just don't sell me on low speed COP unless there's a low speed pump to go along with it.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2012
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    SO your pumping costs is about 10% of your heatpump energy costs. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of the variable speed technology, but an elegant solution like the Phoenix GV flowcenters are 3 times as much as the GT flowcenters. Now with 2 pumps or even 4 pumps and multiple circuits, payback is quicker.

    I doubt that your COP is less in 2nd stage versus 1st, nor do I want to sell you on something. I just passed on some info I had gotten.
  11. Blake Clark

    Blake Clark Member

    Sorry - the royal "you" or "them" selling me, I did not mean you personally :)

    The problem with a 70% turndown and constant speed pump is that the unit will be running continuously in mild weather. With "old tech" it would cycle. So now, instead of a 200 watt pump running 30% of the time, it's running 100% of the time for the same heat output. The statement that pumping costs ($75 annually) won't increase assumes run time will not increase. However, runtime will increase significantly with this new system.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2012
  12. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Thermal dynamics

    does not change with ECM motors. The ability to use less fuel by controlling the motors based on supply and load does change the amount of fuel used.

    The what is used as input data to the motor controllers debate will continue until my grandson's kids are in charge. Delta P can address flow, delta T can address how many BTUH needs to move where.

    With those two and possibly other ways to control motor speed and therefore power needed, we need to concentrate on what is possible. We need to not have the manufacturers dictate our design engineering.

    I do not use flow centers, because I can do the math to size a "just enough" pump. Fluid dynamics is as unforgiving as thermal dynamics. I measure do the math and apply a pump, blower motor and soon ECM compressors to each job.


    PS: See me later on on demand DHW.
  13. Blake Clark

    Blake Clark Member

    I don't think I follow. Granted you can't get a free lunch - but show me a single speed pump properly sized for a full load that isn't an energy hog at part loads? And this is what we're talking about with a variable speed compressor lowering the loop load by up to 70%.

    Now, one could argue then, that a variable speed compressor is a fool's errand and cannot "reduce" the fuel consumption on its own. True - except that in reality a compressor/heat exchanger system might be able to squeeze out a few percentage points running at low speeds because of an increase in surface area to BTUs.

    My point being that if someone out there thinks variable speed compressors are a good enough idea to market and charge a premium for, designers will have to use a variable speed pump or risk a system that is less efficient overall.
  14. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    My point

    is that ECM compressors are on the way. I have been using ECM pumps since Wilo showed up in Cleveland for a solar show. Now everyone has them.

    When we see ECM compressors linked with properly designed loop side systems with ECM pumps, given the proper controls we can take a bunch of the moving target out of geothermal heat pump systems.

  15. Blake Clark

    Blake Clark Member

    Whoops - I read, "does not change the amount of fuel used". Houston, I have understanding :)
  16. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    Now how to design the loop-side for hot water demands...
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That is true, but we are also so fixated on the 3 gpm/tom rule. A heatpump works just fine with lesser flow and a higher delta T. So I don't see much of an issue to size the circulation pump for a smaller load where the heatpump will run most of the time, and let the delta T go up in higher stage (speed?) for a few hours. You might spend a lot in efficiency, but only a couple percent.
  18. Blake Clark

    Blake Clark Member

    O.K. that makes sense - take the efficiency hit at the top end, where you're already taking it anyway. Size the loop field for upper loads + ductwork sized for near peak loads + pump sized for low to moderate loads....I'd say at low "speed" it's going to be pretty doggone efficient, even before you calculate the unit's operating COP increase at low speeds. Now I want one.

    Since I'm on a standing column, though, I already run pretty close to the maximum delta t before a potential lockout. So for me (very small sample size) I couldn't spec flow based on low speed or I'd freeze when things sped up.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2012
  19. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Blake you are not under the assumption that saving lots of energy is the main thrust here are you?
    The marketing coup is claiming higher efficiency than your peers. Uneducated shoppers have little idea what .5 COP means in dollars saved at the end of the year vs spent on installation. (BTW in my AO <$100/yr).
  20. Blake Clark

    Blake Clark Member

    Ha! Funny. Then again, I did buy top-of-the-line and I'd probably do it again given the opportunity. I'm also very proud of my total system dead-of-winter COP of 4+. Was it the best return on my investment? Most probably and/or definitely not. As a homeowner, though, I would not be happy if my state-of-the-art variable speed compressor system did not live up to the higher efficiency claims due to poor pump selection.

    Also, I looked at ROI a little differently. I bought a house that had a heating system that the inspector politely described as "fully depreciated". Knowing I'd be in the house for at least 5 years, that was the payback window I was looking for. So, I could have designed a system with a better ROI but instead designed the most efficient system I could given my payback window.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2012

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