Virginia Trilogy 45 versus 7 SERIES

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by Geothermal Spirits, Dec 7, 2015.

  1. We are conducting a test between both machines to see which one really is the leader in the industry.
    I have had my Trilogy 45 1860 installed since 11/13/15.
    Will be installing Waterfurnace 7 series NV48 with fully automated controls and desuperheater by the year end.
    I will keep you guys posted on results.
    There is only but one way to decide which unit is operating the most efficient and will be the unit moving forward to be highlighted to our customers
  2. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I would be curious to see how you actually measure the operational efficiency.
  3. To be fair we are using the EMS that each machine comes with from the manufacturers. Included in the Trilogy, Extra cost from Waterfurnace. But I also am having a good old friend of mine that is a dinosaur in the geo industry to do his own third party monitoring.
    We are using the Climatemaster 85 gallon water heater as well as changing it out when we swap out for the 7 series. We will then install the 80 gallon GEOSTOR tank to give a fair comparison between both manufacturers products.
    Both Machines will be counterflow, left hand return using their own proprietary communicating thermostats, hot water functions, and my Aprilaire 800 steam humidifier to be controlled by the room stat.
    The Trilogy 1860 is a true 4 ton machine that will be replaced by a 4 ton Waterfurnace 7 series Geo with monitoring kit and desuperheater.
    We are investing big $$$$$$$ in both machines so that we can see which machine better suits our customers needs.
    We will leave no stone un-turned from training, to delivery to commisioning both products and factory customer service.
    So far it has been a very bumpy road for Climatemaster.
    Hopefully Waterfurnace will be a bright spot.
  4. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The temperature sensors on the Waterfurnace are not calibrated and the temp sensors are surface mounted and influenced by ambient heat inside the machine. One degree F off in the delta T will give you efficiency readings which are 20% off. The power is measured by an amp sensor, there is a Phase shift coming from the drive which suggests a much higher amperage draw than actually measured by a power meter.
    In other words, the monitoring equipment coming with the unit is unlike to give you the precision needed to detect a true difference between the machines.
  5. Hey Doc
    Thanks for the info but at least it will give us a chance to test both machines, play, touch, feel them from top to bottom side by side in operation.
    My friend who is an 80 year old geo guru who is greatly involved in this industry has his own monitoring systems that he designs. I am leaving that to him as I am man enough to admit when it is time for me to tap out.
    I trust his judgement and information as he is actually testing the modulating BOSCH unit as we speak in his own home, with his own monitoring system that found that they have had to revise their system monitoring design 5 times as I was told by him.
    Which by the way he told be that BOSCH couldn't believe that he installed his own third party monitoring system to check the accuracy of their data.
    I truthfully just want to see first hand the good, the bad, and the ugly of both companies and how they handle their premium flagship machines.
    Once I get the Waterfurnace in first hand I will have a gauntlet of information about my experience with both premium products from the 2 leading manufacturers.
  6. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Looking forward for your experience. Let us know.
  7. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    True power readings require knowing "power factor", not just volts times amps. I would highly recommend monitoring the energy consumption of each system with a 3rd party electricity submetering system such as "The Energy Detective" that incorporates power factor in its calculations.
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree. The performance difference between the machines might be 1-2%, whereas the monitoring has an error rate of maybe 10%. The standardize labs cost hundreds of thousands of dollars which would be able to detect the difference in performance.

    But nothing wrong about spending the money and reporting back the experience. Since no one would do this in the real world we can only learn. Although that any data will be useful.
  9. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I thought the big draw of Trilogy was its ability to furnish domestic water heating on a demand basis, i.e. as though it were a separate zone and able to take the full capacity of the compressor and channel all of it to water heating if no other calls for heating existed. That would be a marked advantage over S7 if it actually worked and the system was as reliable and easy to install as S7 as well as being as efficient.

    Then there is the apparent continued lack of zoning equipment for Trilogy.

    I just now went to look for Trilogy tech pubs and they are not available except to "Geo Elite" dealers, suggesting the product still isn't ready for prime time.
  10. engineer
    I agree with you in regards to the trilogy having the on demand hot water and the advantage of that on paper, you are correct about your comment on the zoning of the trilogy. You are again correct of having to be a GEO ELITE dealer to sell the Trilogy product.
    And you are again in your comment that the product isn't ready for prime time.
    Climatemaster isn't even close to being ready for prime time with this product.
    I will elaborate more on that at a later date.
    Should be getting the 7 series very soon.
  11. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I completely support a manufacturer limiting sales of complex variable capacity systems to only those dealers who have attended specialized training. We are certified for WF S7, Trane XV (Interestingly enough Trane uses same Danfoss "Powertrain" compressor + drive as WF), Carrier Greenspeed, and Mitsubishi multisplits.

    If CM's marketers had half a brain they would make their product info, specification, and installation docs available to all of us to peruse and evaluate. If the product withstood scrutiny they might pick up a dealer or two.

    I'm starting to believe the "tri" in Trilogy stands for "3 year Beta phase", but at the current rate of advance they'd better rename it "Pentalogy" with an eye toward "Octology"
  12. Yes I agree 100% with you. That is why we wanted to do this independent test on both flagship products from the top leaders in the industry.
    We to have been very un happy with the lack of materials available and technical data readily available as well as their famous lack of customer service from Climatemaster.
    Please Give me another 3-4 weeks to finish a few loose ends and I will give you guys plenty of honest un-biased reviews of not only the equipment, but also training, support, warranty, operation of both machines.
  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I believe the Trane geo line is made by WF.
  14. Yes sir
    Trane, York = Waterfurnace
    RUUD, Rheem, = Climatemaster
    Carrier, Bryant = BOSCH or FLH
  15. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Agreed - but what I was getting at (but didn't make clear) is also that Trane's top end air source systems, lines XV20 and XV18, both use the Danfoss powertrain. It was weird hearing in an air source class same discussions about oil return cycles and other operating and maintenance characteristics as were discussed in S7 training. Trane uses the Danfoss powertrain in split systems; it'll be interesting to see if WF follows.

    A couple years ago Trane announced an XV-S line supposedly attaining SEER 27.5. It has been vaporware for now, a bit like Trilogy.
  16. Yes you are correct. I also know LENNOX uses the Mitsubishi in their outdoor splits. Looking at the outer shell of both compressors. The Danfoss has a much cleaner appearance. The Mitsubishi looks more like a casted compressor versus stamped.
    I would love to see more of the Danfoss in the splits in both geo and conventional. We can actually start advancing as an industry as a whole.
    I know that in my local area Trane stopped offering Geothermal systems for a long time until recently around 2009.
    I also know they went back and forth a few times between the dark and darker sides to produce their equipment. But at the moment it is the dark side making it.
  17. sodajerk

    sodajerk Member

    My parents are having the Trilogy 45 installed in a home currently under construction very soon. I'm wondering what kind of issues you are having? They were considering it and the 7 series. I think they chose the trilogy for the full time hot water heating and higher heating btu/h output (plus when the picked it out only the trilogy had internet and smart phone functionality). Are your concerns mainly with Climatemaster's training and dealer support or with the actual equipment? I've only found one or two people commenting on their trilogy installations online, but they were very positive.

    Also, is there currently absolutely no way to zone the trilogy?


  18. Our local distributor has been the only bright spot for us in regards to Climatemaster as of late. Great sales features, great concept, poor design, horrible execution, even worse training and tech support.
    Lets begin with CM targeting their dealers that move volume to pay for a class for the Trilogy system, to then sell you the only access to this groundbreaking product for $1800 at this class to become a GEOELITE dealer. The only certified instructor, tech support guy is JEFF S*****D for CM. He has a severe health issue and couldn't make the training so we got an inside sales rep as our instructor. needless to say we were not very happy.
    Let me be clear as a geo elite dealer you are offering your customers a 100% money back guarantee for the first 12 months enforced by CM. We were guaranteed a dedicated in house tech support guy to be accessed within 5 minutes of our calling in for tech support.
    I went back and forth between Waterfurnace and CM Trilogy for 8 months and really wanted the BOSCH unit but they are just to far off with their variable volume.
    So after having some minor issues with tech support with CM I met with their district T.M to make the decision to order the trilogy with the 85 gallon water heater. I ordered the 4 ton downflow with left hand return.
    I oredered the system on 9/05/15 and was told I would have it on quick ship in 3 weeks.
    I got my machine on 11/13/15. This is where it gets fun.
    Once we uncrated the machine we found that the unit was flexing 3 inches and was ready to topple. I then noticed a massive flex in the filter cabinet. I then removed the 2 inch merv 13 filter to find my entire evaporator coil hanging. So I found all of the coil screws that were attaching it to the brackets had vibrated out of the cabinet and then causing the bracket to break. Thus leaving my evaporator coil free hanging. We could have folded the system in half right then by pushing it over. 70% of the cabinets screws were missing. We had to re drill each hole with bigger screws in the cabinet. I then found the DHW variable speed pump bracket broken, free hanging upside down. We had to recover the freon, then repair the evaporator coil mounting bracket, re size all existing screw holes with bigger screws so that we could sturdy the cabinet enough to install the system.. A major dent in the source water in fitting from the factory that was difficult to get to seal.
    This is not what I wanted to see or deal with for a 1@,000 system that i waited 9 weeks for. I had removed my existing duct system and redesigned my entire system for this geothermal system. No heat, 28 degrees outside, no hot water and a not so happy wife.
    Much more to come
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Didn't you previously rave about the Trilogy?
  20. Yes until I installed one in my home. We have a few others. But the down flow has been a complete melt down.

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