So I have the quote for both a Climatemaster TE22 and TZ30 to be installed in my new construction home that should break ground in the next 3-4 weeks. Both will be the exact same configuration with size and hot water, the only difference being $1800 more expensive for the TE30. Looking over the specs for a TE30 vs a TZ22 in a horizontal loop, they are not too far off from each other. Our electricity is cheap, I think around $.07 /kw, so that is not a huge factor. I am also not concerned with the stainless steel look since it will be tucked away in the basement. Is there a good reason to go with the more expensive TE30? For all intensive purposes, looks and a little efficiency are what we would be sacrificing from what I can see..... I am thinking the efficiency difference will take the entire life of the system to pay for itself for the TE30, by then I might be dead and will not care! One other question is that I don't believe there is a hot water buffer tank in this setup. I am thinking of going with the TE22 and have then do a buffer tank as well. If my thinking is correct, this should help save on electric costs in hot water production, maybe more so than going with the TE30 would save. Is my thinking flawed here? Opinions on which route to go?
I have the 22 initially I felt I should have paid the extra for the 30 as you read about something else more efficient and think why am I getting something not as good!! But after I crunched some numbers it basically would have taken 10-15 years to see the difference in cost. I pay 13.5c kw/hr after all fees. If your paying .07kw/hr ( after all fees ) Id be surprised if you even recouped the cost. But if that is your real rate you probably would never recoup your cost of your geothermal system compared to straight electric.
moey, I think you may be more accurate with the $$ numbers. I think the cost of the electricity is around $.065 and then the delivery charge and fees equate to about $.07 also, coming in roughly the same as you. Doing those numbers, you are right, it has to be close to a 15 year payoff and then not much additional benefit the over remainder of the life of the system, especially if the cost is being rolled into the new construction loan. What is that extra $2k going to cost over 30 years in interest?
moey, have you been pretty happy with the TZ22 so far? Any equipment related issues that are a Climatemaster problem and not the installer's?
We have had no problems its only been in 3 months though and in summer is not very warm in Maine to run it much. Remember though if its $1800 more its $1260 more after tax credit. We don't have a buffer tank I may add one in the spring. I kind off wish I had completely not gone with the desuperheater option and gotten a hybrid water heater with rebates federal and local it would have been a $100 for the equipment ( GE Geospring ) and actually worked in the summer. Where I am the A/C just does not run enough in the summer to make the desuperheater do anything. Ive ran my A/C I think 15 days this summer and that is with it set at 71.
Yeah, we would run most of the summer months from May-Oct here in Ohio so I think I may benefit from it for at least 4-5 months of the year...at least I hope.
WHAT no buffering tank? Why not? Why not better controls? I am building systems in Ohio that only run about 35% of the time with a full load. Water can work wonders. Mark
You also benefit from DSH hot water production in the winter. It makes the Hot water with the efficiency of the geosystem. But you need 2 tanks to make it efficient.
The system has to run though. At least in my climate unless I set my A/C in the 60s it just does not run. I just don't see the benefit to cost advantage vs a heat pump water heater. My neighbor has one of the heat pump water heaters it costs him in the teens to run it. He usually moves it to straight electric in January and February. Cost then doubles in those months. You would never see the cost recovered from insulation cost of two tanks. You literally can walk into lowes right now and buy a GE geospring for $100 after tax credits.
BTW Im not the arguing the merits of a desuperheater they are proven technology. I just wonder why more geo installers if any dont discuss a HPWH with clients. I had three installers quote my system and not one mentioned a HPWH. My opinion is that it would have worked better and cost less ( to install and some cases even operate ).
What is the down side to not running two tanks, feeding "cooler" water to the hot water tank forcing it to come on more frequently? I am not exactly familiar with how the system works but it would seem that it would be fed cooler H2O regardless of coming
Oops, didn't mean to post yet... I am not exactly familiar with how the system works but it would seem that it would be fed cooler H2O regardless of coming form the DSH or from the holding tank? I am a computer guy, not a geo guy, I need an education on this!
Also, any input from you installer on the TZ22 from Climatemaster? Being a computer guy as stated above, I know the issues associated with bringing more electronic technology to something that is for the most part mechanical. Now you have stuff breaking that cant be fixed and it costs 4x more than the mechanical parts. Have you seen reliability issues with the digital climatemaster units (TZ22 and TE30)?
The electronics are usually very stable, I personally don't like the TZ22 because it performs so much less and only is a couple thousand less upfront. So for 10% lesser overall system costs, you make the system 12-15% less efficient, for life. I also have not warmed up to air sourced heat pump water heater in heating dominated climate. While it cools and dehumidifies the basements in cooling dominated climate, it take the heat out of the thermal envelope in your house in heating dominated climate, BTUs which you had at least partially extracted or produced once already. Do a search why you need a buffer tank for useful DSH operation, it has been discussed many times.
Ever see an air sourced heat pump water heater used as a buffer tank? Ive thought about putting that in as my buffer tank and running it in heat pump only from May - Sept then once the heating season starts shutting it off and relying on the desuperheater to warm the buffer tank. One of the reasons I would consider it is the price of the heat pump water heater ( GE GeoSpring ) with credits is lower then a regular 50 gallon tank.
I like the idea of using a GE HPWH as a buffer tank, running it in heat pump mode summer only, especially if the numbers work out. It'll likely provide useful cooling and dehumidification during warmer months.
After thinking about it for a while, it will not capture anything via the DSH during summer. You might as well skip the entire DSH setup, and put in a HPWH as a stand alone solution.
Being a "wet head", I like the idea of air to water heat pumps for DHW, My wife, Stephanie , thought them up a few years back and they became real. We allowed a great DIY customer/friend install a GE machine. Made in china with bad refrigeration components. Big box stood the warranty repair, so far. Some of the new threads here miss our history here. That is OK. We all Google for a fast fix. What this BB does is allow, years of knowledge, times many folks, who have learned the hard way, help others not spend money that they do not need to spend. If it is not too late, we can help save the planet for Climate Change. I am sure the Planet Earth will survive, but people may not. Therefore I get up every AM and go off to save mankind. Good job but it does not pay well, it should. Sorry for the rant. I am not sure they are making air source water heaters that are worth the investment. My biased opinion, Mark
