Starting DIY horizontal closed loop in NE Ohio

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Eric Kurtz, Jul 27, 2018.

  1. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    Hi again,
    I was planning to do an open loop from my pond but quickly discovered that it was unworkable (see my former thread open loop pond).
    I am planning to get some quotes from local installers, but I would like to do this install myself.
    However I would need lots of help with the design phase.
    If someone on here is close to me, I would be great with hiring him to help me design and layout this project.

    I ran a manual J from loadcalc.net and got 36751 btu heating and 15089 cooling. (4* winter temp and 85* summer temp NE Ohio). I ran another calc from Borst and got 29984 btu heating and 35747 cooling. With these figures, I feel pretty confident a 3 ton unit should be about right. Please tell me if I'm wrong or need a pro to do this.
    House details below.
    1400 sq ft with full basement, R 19 in walls. R38 in ceiling, Basement is ICF foam (2.625") forms with 6" of concrete. 8' x 10' garage door in basement R18,

    I am leaning toward a Climatemaster 30 3 ton unit. I like the built in diagnostics and pump control with their vFlow. However I am concerned about reliability and longevity. Does anyone have any experience or recommendation on a good unit for a DIY. (I'm pretty handy but these things can be complicated.) And where to buy?
    I can rent a large trencher from my brother-in-law's business. It is capable of 6' deep, 10" wide trench. My soil is pretty well drained, so I thought I would take trenches 200' to the pond then turn and parallel the pond for approx. 100' as close as practical to take advantage of the groundwater coming from the pond. According to rule of thumb, I would need 500-600' per ton. So that would call for 3 loops.
    I could parallel the pond for 200' for a total trench length of 400-500'. Does this mean that I could drop down to just 2 loops? I would plan on bringing loop lines into basement and putting headers there.
    What is the best setup for placing the lines in a narrow trench? 1 stacked above the other separated by 2 feet like Climatemaster shows in their literature? Just one per trench? I would assume that the flow goes out in 1 trench and comes back in another, but doubt this makes a difference as long as there is enough loop length.

    Well that's enough questions for now.
    Thanks,
    Eric Kurtz
     
  2. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Diagram? I'm in Ohio, planning on a pond loop. If you're going to order a built-to-order Climatemaster, you might want to start the process now. Ingram's said it was going to be 6 weeks max and Climatemaster keeps changing the ship date. It's past 6 weeks and no delivery.

    As for your loops, why not place the loops in the pond? 300-400' per loop. It's certainly far but doable. Use fusion fittings instead and make headers before the basement. You can rent the fusion tool.
     
  3. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    The pond is only 6' deep for most of it, with one small (20' x 20') that it 8'. From what I've learned, that is marginal at best. Tell me if I'm wrong? Plus we do like to fish and swim in it too.
     
  4. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    As far as diagram, I'll try to make a rough one.
     
  5. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Maybe make it deeper? What acreage is it? Easy for me to say, I'm putting one in with the proper depth. You don't know how hard it is to find pond excavators. Most are backlogged. I'm still waiting for my pond guy.
     
  6. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    Here is a basic diagram of my property. I would either put the loops in between house and pond so as to get wetter soil or in field beside house which would be easier but drier soil.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    I do want to clean the pond up and could easily make it deeper, but don't have time right now. I could just put this whole thing off a year or two, if the pond loops are enough better than ground loops. I currently heat with wood with electric resistance backup. So it's not like I have to do something immediately, but long term I definitely would like to upgrade the electric furnace.
    Are pond loops enough better than ground loops to be worth the wait and mess at a later date? We just moved in last fall and just put our sidewalks in this summer so would be nice to do all the dirt work now.
     
  8. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Well the tax credits will go down and expire in a few years. It may not renew. Ponds loops winter temperature is 39 ewt minimum. Ground loops could go to 32 if not deep enough. It's really up to you. If it were me I'd make the pond deeper and get the tax credit before it expires. The pond work would be included in the tax credits.
     
  9. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    How deep is deep enough?
     
  10. nc73

    nc73 Member

    8' min. Mine will be at least 10ft average. Go 10 if your level changes a lot.
     
  11. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    How big of an area needs to be that deep? Also what is deep enough on ground loops?
     
  12. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Well if you go by climatemaster it's 1/2 acre, 8' deep average, but 1/4 acre should do fine. No way you're going to freeze the pond solid. It's ok for the top layer to freeze and you'll still get 39 ewt due to stratification. Do some searches on here on pond loops.
     
  13. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Oh and if you use an aerator, do not turn it on in winter. It will likely make the bottom colder and interfere with stratification.
     
  14. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    This pond is 1-1.5 acres, so size is not an issue. It is just that the depth is marginal.
     
  15. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Ponds loops winter temperature is 39 ewt minimum. Ground loops could go to 32 if not deep enough.

    I almost let that one slide, but no. The earth is warmer than the pond in winter (and cooler than your pond in summer). Your ewt will be based on your design in either case. Bury your loops in the bottom of your pond and you just have a saturated soil ground loop.
     
  16. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    Thanks, urthbuoy,
    From the reading I've been doing it seems that the horizontal loop is going to be the best for my application. One thing that helped convince me: I took temp readings from my pond the other day, 81* on the surface and 74 at 7'. Without digging deeper, I could probably get to mid thirties EWT or lower. We've had as much as 12-16" of ice on it. Also the pond loop has the potential to be more maintenance.
     
  17. Eric Kurtz

    Eric Kurtz New Member

    Just wanted to update everyone:
    Dug some test holes down to 6'. Logged in to Loop Link and checked my ideas with it. Here are some pics of the ground and the temp at 6' IMG_20180728_161835.jpg
    IMG_20180728_163522.jpg IMG_20180728_161939.jpg
    Fairly sandy with small sandstone pieces and some clay. Damp, so that should help.
    Temp was about what I expected. All in all, not the greatest but could be worse. Soil survey says Canfield silt loan. I used a thermal conductivity of 0.66 BTU/per hour. To keep EWT of 35* according to LoopLink, I need 533' of 3/4" sdr11, 3 loops.
    Basic layout that I've come up with and put in Loop Link is this pic. IMG_20180730_175031.jpg

    Let me know if you have any ideas on improving so far!
    Thanks
    Eric Kurtz
     

    Attached Files:

  18. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You are wrong...
     
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    5-6ft

    6-8' deep pond, about 3/4 acres

    EWTs are about 40F since they are not calibrated.

    http://welserver.com/WEL0384/

    As a DIYer, you want to bring in the loops individually into the house, since you down't have a purge card.

    62F in a 6' test hole means not much, temp fluctuates between winter and summer at 6'.

    533' trench = 1,066' of pipe? What do you think your pressure drop is? What is your pressure drop with 2 loops?
     

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