Standing Collum Well in the Rockies

Discussion in 'Standing Column Well (SCW)' started by mountaineer, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. mountaineer

    mountaineer New Member

    I am an Electrical & HVAC Contractor here in the foothills west of Denver, 3 yrs ago I built a new shop/office building, when the well was drilled 900' deep, it only produced .25 gal per minute, last year we rented out some office space and with the increase of people we decided it would be nessesary to drill a new well ( 340' 40 GPM located 24 ft from the first well, go figure) Im looking to use the old well for a WSHP standing collum system, the pump is located 10' from the bottom,the discharge temp is 51.7F the static level is 45 feet, from the drillers log, the formation is Red Granite the entire length of the borehole, I am trying to determine if it would be better to use a standing collum, and if so what is the design criteria for ton/ft, or if it would be better to use a closed loop inserted in the borehole, the water quality here is very good, so I dont have a problem with using a semi open system, I am using infloor radiant in the shop, and zoned forced air in the office,both 90 plus Propane, my Manual J indicates that I will need 10 tons heating, 4.5 tons cooling, If I use the old well for Geoexchange, I will not be able to bleed any water from it, as per the permit, any info would be greatly appreciated.

    MARK
     
  2. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

  3. mountaineer

    mountaineer New Member

    Thanks, its a 6-1/8" standard waterwell installation, Ive been doing some research on geoexchange, and am planning to take the accredited installer training at OSU this spring, as I think this is a service I could offer my customers, as I have had alot of experience with WSHPs in building loop systems.
     
  4. Nemek

    Nemek New Member

    Hi I know

    there is diffrent rules in your contry,, but here we put closed loops in almost every geoheat system,, and at 900 feet we go with 2*50mm or 4*32mm sorunded just by water,,filled with water for making it possible to get it all the way down,, and mix in the ethanol when its on the bottom. works well
     
  5. mountaineer

    mountaineer New Member

    that Da-m ATF and state engineer

    Unfortunately here in the US we cannot purchase ethanol in its pure from, even though its one of the best thermal transfer fluids available, due to the ATF requirements that a denaturant be added so that stupid people wont drink it( yes this is America, where 1 idiot can screw it up for everybody) many of the denaturants used are petroleum based and are not compatable with the polyethelene pipe commonly used. In our state it goes one furthur
    we are only allowed to use Propelene Glycol or R-22 (as with the earthlinked DXsystem)Thats it, I've asked if R-407 will be allowed ( after R-22 is gone) and the folks there didn't know, the regs as currently written dont even allow for an R-410A DX system, my reason for wanting to use a standing collum, are that all Glycol becomes extremely difficult to pump at low temperatures, and
    the cost of the PE pipe, other than that, I found some interesting reading on the subject from OSU, the link: http://www.hvac.okstate.edu/research/Documents/orio_johnson_Rees_Deng_Spitler_05.pdf

    These were installed in the eastern US and were extensively studied, I am amazed at the reduction in ft/ton requirements only 40-60 feet per ton vs 200 for closed, but Im sure there might be some downside to this application, thats kinda what I'm looking for...
     
  6. mountaineer

    mountaineer New Member

  7. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    WOW

    Want a treat to hear HVAC speak.

    22 and 407 are bye bye.

    I like R-11, it is a great solvent.

    OSU does not know all.

    Learn to deal with 134A and 410A and blame the protocols.

    OUR JOB is to move heat with what ever they give us to do the job. That is why it pays so well "they" think. We will not save the planet, with luck our grand kids might.

    I will work until I die to slow things up enough for Nathan Smith's kids have a life here.

    Or escape to Mars, or beyond.
     
  8. mountaineer

    mountaineer New Member

    mis type again

    Sorry I meant to say R-427a, this supposedly will be the "drop-in" for R-22
    we cant't buy it out here yet, although I know one guy out east that has used it on a Earthlinked DX system, and when the rep found out they were not very happy about it...
     
  9. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If we

    made equipment designed for whatever and some one like us dropped in a drop in, we would want off the warranty.

    What is possible is not industry standards at all times.

    BTW, I call them as I see them.
     
  10. Alpine Driller

    Alpine Driller New Member

    Local Geothermal Driller -

    Hi Mark - we did a system in Evergreen - out-of use water well needed to be abandoned...we grouted two loop pipes into it, making it a closed loop hole (it was supplemented by several additional drilled holes). Standing column was considered, but there are issues with water rights that applied to this situation that made it a pain for the owner, so he went with this closed-loop option. The well was only 100' deep, but the designer who did the calcs said the owner got over a ton from the old well using it in this manner.
     
  11. mountaineer

    mountaineer New Member

    water rights

    I have junior Water Rights for this property, additionally the permit for the building is commercial extended use, up to 7 Acre feet- YR, when it was built I had to Install a water meter, that to date no one has ever read, the Ironic part, is that this well that I have to abandon only produces .25 GPM, (and I dont even think its that much) The Colorado SEO (state Engineers Office )
    told me that the process is just a re-permitting for a type-A open system with return in the same borehole. My 2 concerns are: Is it posible to insert
    loops in a hole that deep- 960' , what about pumping requirements, what is the ft per ton for loop in borehole, and the hole is full of water, static is 45 feet. we had the driller remove the pump, and liner, so the hole is now ready for abandoment, or insert loops. IF I decide to go semi-open ( standing Collum) I am concerned about water quality, the hardness was tested this week at 10 Grains- 171 PPM
    hardness, Ph- 7.4 anybody have any input on heat exchanger problems with these levels, with regards to drilling more holes Id like to avoid if possible
    we just cleaned up the mess from the new water well that was installed last yr.
     
  12. Nemek

    Nemek New Member

    its

    no problem insert loop in a little more then 300 m , 6" well
     

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