Southeast PA Quote

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by JFLame, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. JFLame

    JFLame Member

    I'm in the process of getting quotes for a geothermal system to replace my propane system.

    I got the first one today, here are the major details:

    Waterfurnace NDV049 4 ton unit, 10kW auxiliary heat
    Vertical closed loop - two shafts @320 ft per shaft
    Desuperheater with 50 gallon buffer and 50 gallon electric hot water heater
    Intellizone system for 3 zones
    New supply lines, new return line, use existing branches of of existing supply.
    All permits, grading, seeding, electrical, plumbing, etc. As far as I can tell it's a total installation. Removal of old equipment, etc.

    The cost for this is right around $35k before any credits.

    I'm in the process of procuring other estimates, but I'm curious if anybody has an early read on if this sounds reasonable.

    I did talk with another HVAC guy who loosely quoted me the following:
    $28k for Climatemaster 4-ton unit alone (no hot water or zoning)
    $32k for Tetco 4-ton unit alone (no hot water or zoning).

    I'm not going with this guy as I didn't like his "style."

    These quotes seem so high to me. Any thoughts are welcome.
     
  2. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Quotes are high based on what?
    Vertical systems generally do cost more to install than horizontal.
    I don't have any knowledge of going rates in your area.
    Get more estimates and you will come to understand the going rate in your town.
    Good Luck,
    j
     
  3. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Has a load calculation been performed?

    How much propane have you been using per season?

    Depending on local drilling costs and degree of difficulty implementing zoning, that price may not be out of line.
     
  4. JFLame

    JFLame Member

    I'm confident that the sizing is correct.

    I've done the payback calculations, that's not the issue here.

    I'm told that drilling costs are around $10,000.

    The zoning portion is about $2400 of the $35,000. I only know this because I asked for two quotes, one with zoning one without.

    I think my price basis going into this were the quotes that friends had gotten over the past few years. Everybody was reporting a similar (or sometimes larger 5-ton system) in the ream of $25-27k, with zoning included. I'm guessing that the federal tax credit is responsible for the sudden increase in system cost. Yeah, at the end of the day you pay slightly less than you would of without the credit, but it's the contractors who seem to be getting the lions share of the benefit.

    I called for a propane fill yesterday, $1.75 a gallon. The payback period if fuel prices remain low (or slide further down) is really far out at this point. If you have natural gas there is almost no benefit of going geo anymore. If these prices remain low the geo prices will be forced to adjust back to where they should be, I imagine.
     
  5. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The folks do not understand zoning.
     
  6. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I am not too far from southeast Pa ( 20 mins outside of Philadelphia on the Nj side of Walt Whitman). I'm not trying to jump into your jobsite, or bid on it either since I only currently drill in NJ.
    But just curious as to if the driller is doing the tie-in and headers for that 10,000 price tag?
     
  7. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    JF, I don't mean to sound testy, but you came here for advice and when asked by a pro about load calcs your response was "I'm confident that the sizing is correct."
    If I were to respond in kind to your original question I would've simply said- "I'm confident price is correct."
     
  8. JFLame

    JFLame Member

    The advice I'm looking for is if the pricing is in-line with the rest of the industry. If I'm confident the system is properly sized, what are you getting at? I'm not here to get advice on whether or not I can survive on a 3-ton system vs. a 4-ton, or if the loop length is proper, I've read plenty and I concur with what the contractor has come up with, so what else is there to discuss except for the actual install price?

    Calladrilling, $10,000 will get you the tie-in and headers. The farther north you go the cheaper it gets. I know of one guy who operates out of the Allentown area who says he does it for $8500 for a 4-ton setup.

    Which brings me to overall price. The best I can figure so far:

    ~$10k for loop install
    ~$15k-20k in materials and install for the Waterfurnace, DSH, holding tank, water heater, and Intellizone.

    On the high end, there is ~$10k unaccounted for. On the low end it's $5k. What am I missing? Is this gravy for the contractor?

    Perhaps some of you industry insiders could share some insight as to the expected costs beyond the ground loop install?

    I have other quotes coming in, but this was my first. I think I'll get to an answer eventually, I just hoped that some folks here could help speed that understanding.
     
  9. JFLame

    JFLame Member

    Mark, can you elaborate on what you mean with this statement?
     
  10. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I have not installed a Tetco Unit, don't know why one would cost $4000 more.

    When asking about price on this forum, about all you can expect from the pros is " get more bids ".

    There is not much more we can say since there are so many details, which we are not privy to, that make up the bid price.

    Keep us informed and good luck!
     
  11. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Drilling can vary too.
    Air rotary or mud rotary?
    What types Of soils are they expecting to drill into?
    Borehole size and loop diameter?
    Grout types used... Bentonite 20% or enhanced grouts?
    Length from loop field to house for headers?
    Length of inside piping to the flow center?
    Your not accounting for the purging, or the antifreeze addition either.
     
  12. Joe

    Joe New Member

    Hi all,
    Here is the price I went with. 4 years ago I had a 4 ton waterfurnace installed in a new home that I had built. It was open loop with 2 zone dampers. Including all duct work, price was $17k. This spring I switched it to closed loop. Driller charged $9,234.which included header pipes fused, grouted benonite, and stabbed into the basement. Hvac guy charged $2,100. Which included dual flow center, loop conditioner, pipes to waterfurnace and insulation. So the total is $28, 334. to date. I am extremely happy with this system. I live in northern Maryland/ Delaware. Hope this helps
     
  13. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What did your driller give you?
    Bore depth,loop size for $9234???
     
  14. Joe

    Joe New Member

    The loop driller gave me 2-300ft wells, 92ft of steel casing. (Horrible drilling). 1" vertical loops with 1-1/4 header to the house. 50' from the house,Grouted. :)
     
  15. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I am assuming air rotary drilling through rock?
    That drilling pricing seems inline with our 1"x180 standard loop installs.
     
  16. Joe

    Joe New Member

    Sorry, Yes air rotary drilling. Clay/ fragmented rock. Hit water at 12 ft. we have a high water table.
     
  17. JFLame

    JFLame Member

    Yeah, the costs you quote are more in line with what I was expecting based on similar stories from others.

    It sounds to me like the $35k quote is about $5k too high, as I figured. I have two other estimates scheduled, hopefully I can find somebody who is more reasonable.
     
  18. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Hate to break the news to you, but you can not compare your 4 ton system to somebody else's 4 ton system in a different area of the country.

    You have to compare apples to apples, and each and every home needs are different as well.

    Get more quotes and you'll better understand the market in your area. Thats the best answer you gonna get.
     
  19. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Hate to break the news to you, but you can not compare your 4 ton system to somebody else's 4 ton system in a different area of the country.

    You have to compare apples to apples, and each and every home needs are different as well.

    Get more quotes and you'll better understand the market in your area. Thats the best answer you gonna get.
     
  20. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Ahhh zoning.

    ....the elephant in the room.

    I think that zoning has evolved into a buzz word for those who need the latest and greatest.

    At the end of the day zoning is about comfort, with a sprinkling of economics. Either a home needs to be zoned or it does not. If I bid your job and it needs to be zoned I would not provide an estimate with out it.

    MHO

    Mark
     

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