Hi, Hydeo Delta 14 years old 5 ton R-22 located here in Hampton NJ 08827. Closed loop slinky hybrid 5,500 feet made up of 5 slinky loops 1,100 feet each of 3/4 plastic. Four slinky trenches are 150 feet away from house and the fifth slinky is in the return trench that is the common trench for all the lines as they return back to connect to 1 1/2? manifold inside house. All trenches are 4 feet wide and 100+ft. long and a depth of 5-6 feet down with 15 feet distance between trenches. House is two story farmhouse ranch just over 2,400 SQFT 6 inch R-19 walls and R-40+ceilings. System has worked OK for the last 14 years. Few problems with leaks both refrigerant and water. Last issue, leaking Schrader valve cause low refrigerant. Had it fixed and charged last year and this year as part of my normal check I noticed low differential from entering and leaving temperatures. Using same temperature probe in Pete's port EWT is 44.6 and leaving is 42.4 of -15F methanol water. Normal is a 4 - 4.6 differential. Water pressure is about 30 PSI. Air filter is new and clean. No know leaks in air return ducts. Fan sound OK all supply lines are open and no blockages. Sounds like normal air flow??? can't see any dirt on fins. Using manifold found 33PSI low side and 155PSI High side??? at house temp of 66F and heat from register about 10F low, now 85ish usually 92-95. Just looking for some suggestions/directions at this point. I have just enough knowledge to get me in trouble. Took two year college classes for HVAC 30 years ago. Took training classes and received certification in loop installation allowing me to put in our system to get rebate from electric company back in 2000. House had to meet strict/tight insulated requirement to get rebates. Any help would be appreciated. Oh 2 water pump control center, push/pull configuration. Seems to be working. thanks Walt
If those numbers are PSIG you are low on R-22, or not enough air flow. Got any R-22? It has become very pricey. Do you have a leak detector? Refrigerant leaks in heat pumps can go on for awhile in heating mode with out notice. They show up right now in cooling. Look for oil stains in the refrigerant piping. Get a big bottle of simple green and a sprayer. Cover the coil on both sides until it looks like prell shampoo. This will get two birds with one dirty job. Look for leaks and when that is done and you rinse off the soap clean the coil. Hello and Welcome. Mark
Hi Mark, yes PSI gauge! thought they looked wrong. Looked for the tell-tail oil stains nothing obvious. No leak detector, I will do as you suggest and make up a spray to look for leaks. Just had to fix our unit in our Tn. home, It leaked while we were up here and kept trying to cycle and I think eventually burnt out the outside ECM module for the fan. Had to replace motor and module for fan . Wife wouldn't let me leave an AC motor and relays as a temp replacement so it got pretty expensive. But I'm getting pretty good at finding leaks. Shhh... I have some R-22, heck I even have a couple pounds of 12 from our first air-to-air heat pump from the 70's. Think it was a Carrier? Had its problems but worked pretty well. I've been looking at those 52246 Mastercool Superheat Subcool Calculator Digital A/C HVAC Refrigeration or the Yellow Jacket 69196 SuperHeat/SubCool Calculator with Thermometer & P/T Chart on EBay. Sounds like they would make charging easier? Do you or anyone else have any experience with them? thanks again Walt
Walt: This could be harder to find, but it may be possible the refrigerant leak is between the refrigerant cycle and the geo loops. Mark
Yeah, wouldn't that be just my luck. Leaking heat exchanger! If that is the case I will have to consider my options. The unit is 14 years old and has never been my friend. I've had to fix water leaks in the unit and leading up to it. I've had the local geo service guy out here to fix and or try to tweak the system to get more out of it quite a few times. Had refrigerant leaks from day one, changed out the Schrader valve last year after I happened to see the oil trail. As far as saving money it does but at a cost. Wife and I are sitting here in thick socks and sweatshirt drinking hot coffee to keep warm . Temp in the house is set to daytime temperatures of 64-66 and 60 at night. We are total electric and rates here are high but we do the monthly budget thing and average $220+ a month, with some very high bills over the winter months. I have lights on timers and most are CFC's or LED's. Keep in mind we are gone for quite a few weeks in the winter and house is set to 52F. I know this is anecdotal and the system probably isn't as bad as I portray but I think I would look at a new 2 stage system NOT a Hydro Delta or who ever makes them now. Well enough venting, I thank you for the help and I've got to get busy and work on the system, more cold weather coming!!!! Walt
OK. got some up-dates. Should have known. Somebody didn't check their work. The Schrader valve I had the core replaced is leaking like a sieve! Just the cap was slowing down the leak. It is the high side and the cap has the neoprene seal but it has hardened over time so it doesn't make a good seal. Not that it should. I will let the guy know and see if he wants to fix his work. One question how likely is it that the Schrader valve core just went bad and I just need to replace the defective core again and all will be well? No matter what, I will still need to get someone here to add the correct charge. I added till I saw about 130 R-22 line for high and 55? on low side. I didn't write it down and I'm up here on the computer so don't hold me to those numbers. I looked for the super heat numbers for unit but didn't find anything on the inside panels. Tried sub cooling but numbers were weird. Don't have the equipment or knowledge. What kind of numbers should I be expecting? thanks Walt
I carry about 50 schrader pins on the truck and have tools to change them with a system under pressure. "They" say pins for 22 and 410A are the same, but I have my doubts as the oils are different. I know pins for air get the gaskets and O-rings eaten by refrigerant systems. Try this link: http://ischvacr.com/pdf/Genetron-AZ20-R22-Pressure-Temperature-Chart.pdf My guess for R-22 in heating you should be around 180 to 260 PSIG so I think you are still low. Did you try tightening the pin? No charts available from the manufacturer? Since you found the leak you are way ahead. The pin may not be the only leak but get that fixed pump it up and see how it goes. I am already bored with winter in Cleveburg, so a road trip to fix your unit could happen. I am willing to help you find the tools you need if that helps. You may call me if you wish. Mark 440.223.0840
What we have seen is high pressures in cooling mode can arise from dirty filters/coils. This leads to a leaking schraeder valve, commonly on the high pressure side.
Hi urthbuoy, no worry there. I could count on one hand the number of times we have used the unit in cooling mode in the last 14 years. I'm pretty good at changing out filters before they need changing. Cheap insurance I figure. I buy the mid to high end filters not the cheap blue fiberglass ones. But thanks for this information, Something to consider. thanks Walt
Hi Mark, thanks for the offer and thanks for the chart. Cleveland, Huh I don't blame you for looking for anything to get outta the cold. I'm trying to do the same thing I'm doing all this so I can comfortably leave the house for a few weeks while we go down to our vacation home ( 3 car garage with apartment above) down in Tennessee. Wife has developed a hatred for winter (especially snow) and is chopping at the bit to get out of here. I put in a new Wi-Fi thermostat in both places so I can check in where ever we are. Just wanted to check system before we went. So right now looking much better. I found the schematics and noticed I had the fan running on mid range and not the high speed they suggest. Can't remember why I did that when I set everything up. Really should have kept a journal. But I did put it on high and the last check on the water EWT vs LWT showed a delta of 4.3F using 43.9F EWT less 39.6F LWT so we are back in the zone. Spraying all the cleaner on the coil looking for leaks probably didn't hurt either. Wouldn't you know it couldn't find a Schrader valve core tool anywhere. Bikes are in storage so couldn't even try to use a tire cap! Will try to tighten core tomorrow. Will double check my numbers on the manifold also. Are you familiar with the sub cooling and super heat calculators? They have the charts and probes all in one. For someone like you who could probably do the calculations in your sleep probably wouldn't have any needed for it but would it make sense for someone like me? I looked around for my temperature probes to try and work out the right charge but everything I own is everywhere. Have garages , sheds, storage units both here and in Tennessee as we try to get this house ready for sale and retire to Tennessee. I can't find anything. thanks for all the help and suggestions. Walt
Walt: There are times when I go buy stuff rather than look for stuff I know I own, It saves time. Start at the nearest auto parts store for the tool. Deep in the bottom of my tool belt pouch is an old 4 way tire valve tool. I keep it there for your kind of problems. Please do not tell. I have folks spray simple green everywhere for a reason. I check coil cleanliness with a flash light. Old motor heads do not die or we go sticking our head in the fan belt. Before you go south, if you are not happy with the northern unit give me a call. I will do what I can to make you, Mrs. Walt and the machine happy. Mark 440.223.0840
You are very kind! I thank you for the offer and appreciate knowing there are people like you out there willing to give their time and experience to help. Snowing today and wife is beside herself with worry. Not that we have to do any thing or go out in it. She is talking about going south NOW! I plan on calling the local geo service guy this morning. I'm pretty sure he will be able to come out and fix system. He always impressed me with his dedication something I thought was missing from many installers in this industry around here. I know there are great people like you who and others on sites like this who are trying to improve the image of geothermal systems. Unfortunately geo systems have gotten a bad rap because of misunderstandings and bad players in the industry. I know I bitch here about my system but over all it does an okay job. Our old house right next store was 1500 sqft and total electric utilizing a air to air heatpump. This larger house uses less total watts of electric compared to that one. When I explain this to people who ask "why would you go through all the trouble and added expense" I try to explain that it is expensive up front but it is a clean and designed to be simple to maintain and energy efficient compared to fossil fuels. Just too many installers don't design systems correctly or price in substandard systems to get the bid. I'm sure you have heard it before and I'm glad you guys are here. thanks again for everything Walt
