Researching geothermal heat pump system, 1 quote so far, concerned.

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by tstolze, Jun 20, 2010.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Sometimes either party must reschedule for various reasons, which does not mean that we would not be there ASAP in the unusual case that anything is not working properly with one of our systems installed. You got 6 estimates so far.
    If I go out to a customer, average drive time out is 1 hour one way, plus I spend one hour inspecting the property. Then I spend about an hour over plans and writing up an estimate, and may be half an hour on a manual J, so I invest 4.5 to 5 hours in each customer, treating each one with courtesy and respect, and going the extra mile for them to get the most out of their system, many times resulting in lesser money for us but a better solution for the customer.
    So by now 6 guys have invested a combined 30 hours into you, but only one can do your job.
    Geodesign requires know how and skills, with all the overhead an hour for a designer runs about $60.
    And at night, I am sitting here trying to help people like you interested in geo for free.
    So now imagine my daughter has an incident in school where my attention is required, my car breaks down, or our crew needs my immediate help on a job site, and I need to call you and reschedule, and with that I am not making your list anymore....
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
  2. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    loop length

    The total length of loop is the most important number, not the number of loops. If you get a price for 200' loops and the driller hits bedrock @x'. Be ready to accept more loops at 160' for example to still add up to the total pipe length that was quoted. Drilleing overburden is far cheaper than paying for additional footage into rock. Keep us posted:)
  3. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I fear again, our comments have led someone to believe that extra loop is necessary or even beneficial v cost.
    Ask installer to prepare operating cost comparisons. You may find very little advantage to additional footage. Cost wise will it will be fairly modest due to system being only 2 ton, but pct wise it may add as much as 10% to job.
    If installer is willing to back performance without spending extra money, why spend extra.
  4. tstolze

    tstolze Member

    My contractor and driller will be out later this week or early next week to finalize plans. After more conversation on the loop placement and length he said the driller will contact him if he feels more length is needed due to material makeup of the wells.

    He repeated what many of you have said that he is responsible for the design of the system, if it doesn't work as expected he will have to make it right.

    I appreciate all your input, I am glad I found this forum!
  5. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I so love to hear stories about stand up contractors!!!:D
  6. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I stand up all day while running my drill rig:D:D:D
  7. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Don't automatically reject

    contractors forced to reschedule proposal meetings.

    Most contractors are very small outfits, and meeting a customer's sudden no-heat / no-cool call owing to a blown capacitor or failed contactor during extreme weather takes priority over sales calls. Presumably if you become our customer you would expect such preferential treatment. We are now in the extremes of summer cooling, so call volume is high.

    That said, any missed appointment certainly demands a timely apologetic call to explain the miss and an extra effort at a makeup time, even if it requires a night or weekend hour.
  8. sunnyflies

    sunnyflies Member Forum Leader

    Sounds good so far! Don't forget to get references and to check them by calling the people.

    If his customers are still happy years after their systems were installed, and especially if they have recommended him to others who also used him and are happy, then you have found your guy. I knew I had the right man after I called some of his older references. All were pleased with their systems and told me they would definitely use him again.

    If anyone's references turn out to be mostly from friends, family and business associates - I was surprised to have that happen several times - and if some are for unfinished systems - that happened to me also - you might want to think hard about volunteering to be part of someone's "on the job" training program, no matter how inviting their price.

    Good Luck!
  9. tstolze

    tstolze Member

    The driller is coming out tonight to verify and mark drilling/trenching areas.

    The installer said he is shooting for Wed/Thurs for completion.

    I know I have said it before, but thanks for everyone's input, I was able to take some questions back to the installer and get my questions answered/put my mind at ease.

    I have a TED energy monitor on the house as well as my own personal weather station. Our electric provider has 24 months of usage details available on the website also. I will be documenting and posting in the "success" stories section. (how is that for positive thinking) ;)
  10. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Good Luck,
    Hope we helped,
  11. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You'll either be crowing about the success of the system or, given your level of interest, data, and instrumentation, an extremely detailed autopsy...
  12. tstolze

    tstolze Member

    Okay, so the system was to be a Wed/Thurs install this week, the driller didn't show on Wed.....Owner did show up before noon to appologize and insure me that the drilling would go on Thursday and be piped Friday.

    Everything went as planned, we went with a 2 ton Brant GT-PX system, 2-200 ft wells. I had to leave for work today as the driller was flushing the system. Unit was started shorlty after 5 pm today, Wife says she can't hear it running(very quiet!), she left within an hour of the startup and returned around 7:30 and the house is at our 78 degree set point and the unit was off. I think my energy monitor(TED 5000) quit working today, I will have to check it tonight when I got home.

    I will continue to follow up with a success story as data is collected.
  13. bobpietrangelo

    bobpietrangelo New Member

    I can't believe that people say 4-5K/ ton. we all know pricing between a 2 and a 5 ton unit is not that big of a difference, at least not a $16,000 difference. Loops should not be designed on rules of thumb. GeoLink will help you do it, Wrightsoft helps you do it, you can do it by hand. Ground composition is the biggest determining factor. Dry sand vs. avg rock will knock your socks off.

    We are paying here in the NE part of the Country(Philadelphia Area) about $18 a foot for loops including tubing, grout, and manifolding into the basement.

    Equipment w/ DS runs around 14-18K installed.

    I don't know where we come up with these rule of thumb numbers for the cost of systems, and I have seen it from some very respected organizations.

    I haven't gotten to the end of all of the replies yet, when I size a system, and my heating load is a lot larger than the cooling load, I will try and satisfy my cooling load somewhere between 1st and 2nd stage. There are two camps on electric heat sizing, one says design the size to cover the entire heat load in case you lose refrigeration system, the other is to make up for the difference of available capacity vs, required capacity.

    Do not shop on price, shop on quality, visit another job site, talk to the references, longevity in business. Did the contractor just get into geo or have they been doing it for a while. I know the quality of my Geo installs improved more every year that I did them. It is not like installing another system.

    Even if a better contractor wants to charge you $5000 more (number out of my head), over the next 25 years it is a pittance compared to dealing with any headaches down the road.

    In my personal opinion Waterfurnace has the best system on the market. I sold my business and work for another type of HVAC business entirely right now, so I am not making any money or kudos by saying that. I believe they are better engineered, better cabinet quality, quieter, more efficient, less warranty issues, etc. They also make their own equipment and don't buy from another manufacturer and slap their name on it, which is very common in this industry.

    I hope I didn't just repeat what everyone else has already told you, and I hope I was slightly helpful. I also wish I had your electric rate, mine is over double that!

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