Repeated Flow Lockouts On Hydron Module - 7ish Year old system first time ever having an Issue.

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by bryceleo, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The key to getting the air out is either brute force flow or rapid changes in the flow to bounce the air out of the loops. If you see foam you still have air.

    I mentioned this could take a while. Just keep at it until you are bounce and bubble free.

  2. bryceleo

    bryceleo New Member

    Oh boy... I'll keep working with it.

    I keep working the 12 header valves, and I get some pops and snaps from the top ones but despite all the noise I don't see any bubbles/froth in the flow center. I'm a little hesitant to mess with either of the valves that isolate the flow center pumps or the ones attatched on the to/from point son the heat pump.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  3. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    are you isolating and forcing all of the flow down one circuit?
  4. bryceleo

    bryceleo New Member

    I have been. I keep getting the snap/clunk/pops but they never seem to really move anywhere. From looking at the flow center installation manual I'm a bit less than pleased with the header layout. There's no "T" with threaded plug used for bleeding air' which right know looks like it would have made this process worlds better.

    Kind Regards,
  5. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Shouldn't his header have reverse return piping?
  6. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    It looks like the header has purge ports ( the valves on the ends with no handles) You could hook up a purge pump and purge each loop individually.
  7. bryceleo

    bryceleo New Member

    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. I imagine it to mean that the first loop would correspond to the top left and bottom right header handles?

    That is what it looks like to me as well, however I do not have a flush cart (nor do I know how to use one). If I'm still unsuccessful at removing air from the loops by the end of today, I feel I don't have a choice but to call in a professional for at least that part so I can continue troubleshooting if there is still more to the issue than air in the lines.

    Thanks for your thoughts!
  8. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I am quite surprised that you can't move the air out of the loops one at a time. I am wondering if you have it done and just don't know it.
  9. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader


    How much fluid have you added to the flow center?

    To me a non-pressurized flow center is like a purge cart without wheels.

    Without eyes in the basement to look into the flow center and see how it is piped I do not know for sure what I told you to do is correct. If I could do that I might "see" that with a push/pull you may be just bouncing the bubbles without turning off one of the pumps. A single 26-99 should be able to blow up a garden hose.

    When purging my own manifolded system I use a swimming pool pump fitted to hose bibs and pump in and out of a pair of buckets. If I have a system where I can not purge one loop at a time, I call Yoder Drilling.

    Unless a boiler blows up in Cleveland Heights, or the Browns find a new head coach I will be lazing around nursing a cold that I got from a 3 year old customer waiting for spring or 1/2/1013 which ever comes first. I would be very willing to talk you through some of this before you reach for the Yellow Book and your check book. Even Palace calls me, mostly to give me a bad LOL time.

    BTW Dewayne could be right you might be done.

    A good NYE and a prosperous and warm 2013.

  10. bryceleo

    bryceleo New Member

    At this point, maybe a pint?

    That's kind of the way I figured it would work. The flow center is a pre-build QT unit from B&D manufacturing with the 2 26-99 pumps which is rated for up to a 7-ton unit, the installed unit is a 4 ton.

    Yeah, the concept is good and straightforward but I do get a bit paranoid of blowing up or really messing up any of those ground lines too.

    I'd love to chat with you tomorrow if you're available! And I'd be positively thrilled if I was already done and didn't know it. I just really want to get this all fixed up so I can get to this "vacation" time I took!

  11. bryceleo

    bryceleo New Member

    I'm currently cautiously optomistic. Mark and I spent a good few hours on the phone and when all was said and done I managed to add a gallon of water to the 6th line but only about another gallon over the other five total. I've verified that both pumps are working (a/c clamp meter) properly and the system has been running properly since 4am. I've been taking it through 3 and 4 degree swings and so far there are no problems. I have to find new wire nuts for the black grundofs, the ones on it are too big and don't grip the solid-core/stranded combo that well (easy fix). I'm pretty hopeful at this point. I think we're doing well, but I'll keep all of you posted of course.


    A particular thanks to Mark for helping me through figuing out this darn set up and how we needed to set up all the lines to properly get the system to bleed air. It was a pleasure getting to speak with you and we wouldn't be working right now without your help!
  12. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    well done Mark
  13. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    way to go mark .... Geezers rule ...:):)
  14. Rgausman

    Rgausman Member


    Sorry about hearing about your father. I did the same thing as your father back in fall 2007. I took an IGSHPA Installer class with Chuck Remund and John Thulin in PA.

    Purchased a Hydron 4-ton H050 heat pump and installed 2000' 3/4" slinky ground loop with a QT two 26-99 pump flow center. B&D suggests header up the ground loops inside and installing insolation shutoff valves on each loop so the QT flow center can self purge the ground loop. but I decided to header up my ground loops outside and install two 1.25" three-way ball valves in order to hookup a purge cart.

    I know for the Geo professional installers, the QT non-pressurized flow centers fustrates the hell out of them because it is different. By the way, the QT pumps are stacked in series unless you have a multi-heat pump flow center were the pumps are parallel-series configuration. The pump intake has a check valve on it.

    I understand your fustration get the QT pumps to power on when hard wired to the heat pump. I found the simplest thing is to turn the heat pump breaker off, verifying with a voltmeter then jumpering the flow center termination block to the L1/L2 spade connection on the electrical contactor. This way you us the circuit breaker as an On/Off switch. I have been meaning to install a two position DPDT toggle switch so the QT pumps can be manually turned on. Also in the center of my contactor has a manual override button.

    When you were trying to purge the ground, did you close all the ball valves at the ground loop header manifold except for the loop you were trying to flush?

    In the future if your source and return manifold are connect with a ball valve in between, you can close all your ground loop ball valves and open the inter-manifold ball valve to just flush the pumps and heat pump.

    You can see a basic cut away of a QT flow center below

    Web Energy Logger:

    Bob Gausman - WEL0058
    Madison, VA
  15. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    Love the schematic of your system !!

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