Quote conflicts

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by MrEnte, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Can you please explain why a buffer tank. I am getting the desuperheater and a new hot water tank.[/QUOTE]

    If you don't have a buffer tank, the desuperheater will compete with the electric heat element in your water tank. The latter having a larger capacity, guess who will win. Plus the desuperheater will not turn on if the hot water tank is kept at temperature by the electric heat element, thus is will not contribute much to the hot water generation. You can do a search here, it has been discussed multiple times. If you don't get a buffer tank, skip the desuperheater setup, since the DSH will not run much.
     
  2. "Rodney King"

    I've met him several times, he's a really nice but weird guy.
     
  3. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Doc:

    The way I add 12,000 + 12,000 + 12,000 = 36,000. 36,000 BTUH is 3 tons.

    I have been messing around with heat pumps for 37 years, both geo and air to air. In Cleveland, which is near Buffalo, except in football, and we size heat pumps in Cleveland to the cooling load and make up the rest with aux heat.

    Please re-check your math. Maybe WF. Inc. changed the way we count BTUH. I think not.

    I have nothing against WF, except their business model. I will not pay to play in an area I could teach the basics on.

    Joe:

    You sir are a gentleman and I am proud to know you and your abilities.

    Mark
     
  4. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Mark, I guess I don't fully understand the angle you are coming from. Please clarify what you think is wrong with the math. Yes, 12 KBTU/h capacity is generally seen as 1 ton, and geo heatpumps tonnage usually reflects the cooling capacity. Not really either, since for example the 3-ton 5-series is rated at 40.2 kbtu/h for second stage cooling and 26.2 kbtu/h for heating at 32F/77F EWT. Here is a link to the specs sheet. Other manufacturers are similar.

    SC2500AN.pdf

    Variable speed now changes the heating capacity, the cooling is still the name giver for the tonnage.

    Here in Buffalo, our cooling peak load is about 50% of our heating load. If I would have to make up 50% of my peak heating load with electric supplement heat I would have many unhappy customers.
     
  5. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes exactly which is why I also said this:
    "As I mentioned, Doc who does install these tells us they have a higher heating capacity than indicated. Therefore they would need a larger GX unless the system was grossly oversized (so that you didn't extract as many btu's as the system was capable of)"

    Perhaps we could delete the word grossly, but this is a point made days ago

    and again:
    "
    The problem you are haveing here is understanding that we all talk about the design aspects of the heating load as it relates to your house. That is what drives the design for the heat exchanger/loops."
    and again:
    "It is the Heating Load of your house in BTU/Hour that determines how much loop is needed,...."

    ....and only now is it a good explanation to the pupil.

    "
    That is the most thorough explanation yet."

    Methinks Miyagi needs a new Daniel (or theres a butt whoopin' comin' on). Best stick to waxin' cars.
    :rolleyes:

    "MrEnte will be happy with his system,"

    Sure. It's very shiny.
    ;) Just kidding. I have suspicions about unit sizing, but that will not ever be an issue as Mr Ente is happy with the price (higher install cost being the only down-side of a system slightly oversized).

    "
    Joe:

    You sir are a gentleman...."

    Ooops are you sure?
    :p

    "
    Can you please explain why a buffer tank. I am getting the desuperheater and a new hot water tank."

    Yes again several times explained, but I can tell you, that I had an occasion where cost of making hot water went up with a DSH and no buffer. Any pro that monitors performance (or this site) knows this. All the pro's here have even challenged your manufacturer to offer proof of the benefits of the one tank set up. As I recall the (grossly paraphrased and out of context) response was "it saves space".
    :confused: The manufacturer did not however demonstrate operating records to support alleged benefit.




     
  6. MrEnte

    MrEnte Member

    Good news buffer tank was included in my quote so I'm good to go. I kind of understand the concept of the buffer tank now. (just don't ask me to explain it because I just might cause another frenzy. but if you guys & my installer agree that it is the best & most efficient solution. I'm in.

    Thanks for all of the help. Wax on, wax off.

    MrEnte AKA Daniel son
     
  7. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The geo contractor installing MrEnte-san's system is a candidate for beatification and promotion to "geo-saint". If I got wind of half the nonsense he has posted here while in the proposal process I would have packed up my tent and headed for the barn.

    Never has so much been offered for so little to one who values it naught.
     
  8. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Wax on. Wax off is too funny.

    I just hope the guy that gave McEnte-san the kool aide knows his cost of doing business.

    One generally gets what one pays for.

    I can not buy the equipment for this job at the quoted price and it will not self-install.

    Newer technologies do require new thinking, but they must acknowledge the laws of thermal dynamics have not been repealed.

    Mark
     
  9. MrEnte

    MrEnte Member

     
  10. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I'm glad you are getting your buffer tank too, Ente-san:rolleyes:.
    Your Mercedes sure is shiny:D
     
  11. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Any indication that the laws of thermodynamics were repealed?
     
  12. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    "Newer technologies do require new thinking,....."

    See I've been letting this comment go because (contrary to what it may appear) I'm really not trying to pick-on Ente-san.

    I think it would be safe to say, "newer technologies require education in that technology". Since the context was about loop sizing I would argue that "new thinking" did not apply, old thinking (making sure GX was suitable for demands of the appliance) was appropriate.........
     
  13. MrEnte

    MrEnte Member

    Your Mercedes sure is shiny:D[/QUOTE]

    If your ever in town, I'll take you for a spin & I'll buy the Corsendonk (in my opinion the best beer)
     
  14. MrEnte

    MrEnte Member

    I don't think so.
     
  15. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I'll take the shinny ride and I'll try anyone's favorite beer even the stuff they make in Rhode Island. Narragansomething.

    You are becoming a knowledgeable contributor to this BB, if for no other reason that you keep us all on our toes.

    The thermal dynamic laws still stand as heat always goes to cold. The only thing mortals can do is change when and how fast.

    I wish you luck with your project and I hope you keep us mortals up to speed on progress of the system. When all is done and paid for if your numbers come in as announced I want to meet your contractor and talk to him about his suppliers.

    Mark
     
  16. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

     
  17. MrEnte

    MrEnte Member

     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  18. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    [video=youtube;7pdWAcK6Eh8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8[/video]
     
  19. Please stop yelling.
     
  20. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    lol!

    you outed yourself as a " the office fan "! I confess I am as well. I find it more intellectually unwinding than Jearsey Shore. No offense intended or implied Dan.
    Eric
     

Share This Page