Pennsylvania Proposal for geothermal in SE PA

Just got this proposal today. Can anyone look it over for me? This company does the drilling/excavating and HVAC work so it's a one stop shop. It looks like I have room for a horizontal loop system which saves me $2k over a vertical. They are also replacing my 14 year old propane water heater.

Install one four ton variable speed Climate Master Tranquility 27 split compressor system with
copper coil and pre-heat domestic water system
-Install one Climate Master Cased Coil
-Install one American Standard Gold 95 (96% efficient) variable speed, two stage propane fired
furnace system
-Install one standard air filtration system on return side of unit
-Install one Climate Master smart thermostat with 3 heat/2 cool settings for dmx2 controllers
-Install one 50 gallon water storage water system to be used with D-Super heating capabilities
-Install one 50 gallon direct vent propane fired water heater system
-Loop field (horizontal or vertical)


Installation to include:

All material and labor to complete the installation including: multistage digital thermostats, all associated water piping inside for Geothermal ground loop/flow control center, domestic water generation piping, and AC condensate piping.



Drilling/Ground Loop installation Information and Detail:

· Install ground loops in the side yard to meet the requirements of a 4 ton geothermal heat pump. Ground Loop configuration and piping shall be designed to be compatible with the flow requirements of the heat pump and flow Center. The pipe sizing, number of wells, arrangement of manifolds, etc., are a function of the performance requirements, and, other than the total length and depth, need not be specified; ** COMPANY** is at liberty to revise design details, as required by drilling conditions or other constraints, as long as the performance requirements are met.

· Trenching to and from the loops to the supply and return lines and properly fusing the manifolds onto the ground loops and bringing them into the basement, insulating and mounting lines to the unit. This will be done via trenching (private utilities marked by client).

· Pressure testing ground loop with 60 psi prior to backfilling the manifold.

· Grouting with Thermally Enhanced Grout (drilling)

· Backfilling and compacting trenches

· Finish grading disturbed area with on-site soil

· Seed and straw all disturbed area



Warranties

10-Year Limited Warranty on compressor, refrigeration system, & all other components

20 (limited lifetime)– Year Limited Warranty on American Standard furnace system

55-Year Geothermal pipe manufacturer warranty

7 – Year warranty on water tanks

(10 )-Year Warranty on **COMPANY NAME** labor with client paid annual service plan

 

So to add a little information that I just received...my good friend has geo in central PA where in the winter it's routinely 5-10 degrees colder than where I live. He works in the construction industry and also he called someone who really knows about this stuff. They both agreed that I should ditch the split system with propane furnace and go with a packaged geo system with electric back up and be done with it. He has had his open loop geo system for 9 years and has NEVER kicked on the electric backup. Now, would that be because an open loop is more efficient than a closed loop and he can get away with it, or am I being slightly oversold here?

 

I have a 4 ton CM Tranquility 27 split with their "digital" air handler. The air handler has an ECM fan motor. This may be the "variable speed" your quote is referring to. It is NOT a variable speed compressor, which is newer (and better, most say) technology. The Tranquility 27 is on CM's list of obsolete products: http://www.climatemaster.com/geothermal-dealer/geothermal-product-literature/obsolete-geothermal/. I would recommend getting model #'s for the equipment, so you have the clearest picture of what you're getting.

 

No.

 

I agree with the people you spoke with. Packaged unit w/electric backup.

2 electric hot water tanks, get rid of propane all together.

The open loops EWT(entering water temp) allows the heat pump to run slightly more efficient but most likely is offset by the additional pumping power used by the well pump.

CJ

 

CJ, thanks for the info. Just curious...why electric water over propane? Is it more efficient for electric to move water from ~80-85 degrees to the 120 degrees needed than propane, or is it about just getting rid of that particular fuel source?

 

Well I just thought why not get rid of propane. You could use 1 electric tank for the unpowered storage tank connected to the desuperheater, then use a heat pump hot water heater as the finish tank. I have a GeoSpring from GE HPHW heater.

The amount of electric resistance auxiliary heat you might use is probably less then you think. Mine is on a separate breaker so I only turn it on when it is extremely cold.

CJ

 

All things being equal, should a geothermal package unit be cheaper than a split system, cased coil and propane furnace?

 

Mark - did I misspeak?

 

No. I did not think cwb124 was being oversold. I try to make changes in small steps so TGW do not become mountains. If you are worried about the safty of propane than get rid of it. You can get it gone when the tank is M/T.

 

I frankly don't understand the notion to put in a propane furnace in addition to the geosystem.

Simply put in a packaged unit with a buffer tank and a electric finishing tank.
http://welserver.com/WEL0713/

Simpler design, lesser upfront, lesser maintenance, for efficient, cheaper to operate.

Electric likely to be more expensive than propane at today's prices, but about 60% of your annual hot water is preheated by the geo system anyway. And your electric tank operates with close to 100% efficiency (minus standby heat loss) whereas the propane tank is much less.

 

If you own the propane stuff, how does throwing it away save money?

 

cwb124 said,"I need to replace my propane furnace and 4 ton ac system". That is from the other thread (Interested but cautious about geo)

So why get new propane furnace and propane water heater, then a split geo system.

CJ

 

Let me clarify. Propane furnace with split AC and propane hot water heater are 14 years old. AC is dead. I'm replacing everything, including hot water heater because why not, it's past its service life.

What was quoted to me was a split geo with propane backup. I've talked to two people in person since who have a package unit with electric backup who have never engaged the backup heat source and think the propane furnace is useless and more expensive . what was also quoted was a dummy 50 gal tank and a 50 gal propane water heater. I am ok with going with propane WH so I can keep the propane system active as the long term plan is to eventually put in a propane backup generator.

So the question is how much cheaper should a package unit be than a split system with furnace? Any ballpark? $1k? More, less?

 

Also if someone can clarify something for me I would be very grateful. My current propane furnace is a 100,000 BTU furnace that in my opinion does an excellent job of heating the house rather efficiently.

However when I look at comparable geothermal candidates for replacing the unit, what I see are, for example a stage 2 capacity (btuh) of like 36,000. Is it the COP value that "makes up the difference" or am I completely missing something?

 

Typically a fossil fuel furnace or boiler is over-sized by 3-5x. With GSHP you don't want to pay for 1. The larger equipment and larger loop field or more wells.

2. Larger equipment using more electricity while it's running and possibly short cycling, affecting longevity.

I have lived in homes with forced air heat that blow like crazy for a few minutes heating up the room then shut off. Leaving you with hot then cold.

When we got the geo, the heat runs slow and steady. I have to look at a house plant over one register to know it is running.

I really can't help with prices, I can only assume installing 2 systems rather then one will be less.

I believe when you have a call for aux heat(back-up) with the propane set up, it has to shut down the geo. With electric aux it can run with the geo at the same time and supplement the geo .

CJ

 

They aren't cheaper, why would they be?

 

Renewables are generally designed to attack the meat of the load not the once in awhile loads. That your friends have units that have never engaged auxiliary suggest your community likes to oversize stuff including furnaces.

 

Why wouldn't a packaged system be cheaper? A split system is basically all the components of a packaged system in two units with additional labor for brazing and charging system, then you're throwing in a furnace purchase/install on top of that. i don't see how it's not cheaper to just put a packaged system in.

 

Generally people compare a geo which is a very high end appliance to inexpensive furnaces. They would cost similarly if you picked a very high end furnace. Installation is different from one to the next. You are making assumptions that are ignorant to things such as the challenges of moving a 350 pound appliance into the basement vs a furnace and a 150 pound appliance, standard size return air boot vs giant custom job etc.