Pressure or not

Discussion in 'Geothermal Heat Pump Applications' started by Cain, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. Cain

    Cain Member

    I have an appointment to get a quote to put a Waterfurnace or Bard. When I mentioned a flow center he got really annoyed at the idea of a non pressurized system. he also mentioned that very few manufactures will warranty a system if it is not a sealed closed loop. I keep reading that flow centers reduce service calls and work just fine. This guy has a great rep in the area and is somewhat of a perfectionist. I have 1800 feet of pipe buried and getting ready to manifold in the basement 3 circuits. two questions,
    1. can the compression type manifolds from B&D (see picture) be pressurized or do I have to send these back, 2. are QT flow centers supported by geothermal HP manufacturers?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    1. Yes
    2. Yes

    We've switched to non-pressurized. But then we do a lot of 2-unit setups and the 2-circuit units work great for this.
     
  3. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes
    Yes
    +1
    Either pressure or non pressure will work just fine. If he guy you hired prefers closed and pressureised I would not quibble about it. He is the one that is going to service the system after the install. It is easy enough to change at a later date if for any reason you are not happy with his install reccomendation. We install pressure systems only.
    Eric
     
  4. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree with this above statement.
    Let the trusted installer install what he is normally installing. To force someone to install a different product then he is used to installing, can result in service problems down the line. Which will be usually end up in a finger pointing argument on who is to blame for the problems.
    Pressurized VS. Non-pressurized..... Can't we all just get along?
     
    waterpirate likes this.
  5. Cain

    Cain Member

    that really does clear it up for me. this was an over the campfire / cooler conversation and he was to the point not too much two way on the subject. in looking at the Century /Geologix brochure, they list both styles of flow centers as accessories. Being an engineering type and troubleshooter I thought to myself, self why would they sell a FC that they did not support with their HPs. As you can tell, my sense of humor is taking over after 900 feet of trench 5ft deep. As always I really appreciate the input. now if any of you can make sense of the Cincinnati Reds offense for me!!! Thanks again
     
  6. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I got my own problems with an abreviated hockey season, and that bunch of guys in DC who claim they are a football team! You are on your own with the Reds.
    Eric
     
  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Waterfurnace now has pressurized as well as non-pressurized flowcenters in their assessories. Both carry a factory warranty. I am not aware of a single manufacturer which voids their warranty if non-pressurized systems are used. If your installer is so skillful and meticulous, I'm scratching my head why he does not open himself to advancements in the field.
     
  8. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I've begun to appreciate the merits of a non-pressurized flow center, but I happen to be selling Climatemaster at this time which offers pressurized, with pressure tank (solving some of the problems associated with pressurized systems). I like that GPM is dictated by Delta T with this system (and the variable speed pump).
    Sometimes there are compromises in life.
    The Reds? Really? you wanna squawk about your baseball team to a Lions football fan? The rebuilding since 1957 Lions? At least the Reds were relevant at least once in the last 55 years. Suck it up.......LOL (Go Tigers)
     
  9. Cain

    Cain Member

    Hello, I am running the line into my basement. My uncle gave me some natural gas line that he had left over. can I run my HDPE 11 through this without having some kind of weird chemical reaction long term that compromises the integrity of my HDPE. I already have the schedule 80 PVC that I can use. I like the semi-flexibility of the natural gas line and I know it is durable and wonder if it is better than PVC?? Joe, I am a Cinci baseball fan -- and Cleveland Browns Pro FB fan---I think that trumps all for misery in sport....Crying Out Loud every Sunday.... photo.JPG
     
  10. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I don't see any issues with what you are wanting to do
     
  11. Cain

    Cain Member

    Reverse Plumbing diagram.png Non Reverse flow.jpg please see the attachments, both from NP flow center website. I was reasonably confident in the Reverse plumbing theory to achieve balance in my loop. which one of these diagrams is correct? when we refer to reverse, are we going by flow or mechanical connection?
     
  12. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The first is technically correct, but the really is not much difference
     
  13. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Look at the photo to the left of this note for half of a reverse return manifold in Galena Ohio.

    Mark
     
  14. Cain

    Cain Member

    Dewayne, what do you mean by not much difference? aren't they opposite? or it doesn't make that much difference with 3 circuits which is what I have. the best would be to connect as follows? the first becomes the last and last - first. Reverse Plumbing diagram.png
     
  15. Cain

    Cain Member

    Mark, this is the same manifold I am using only 3 circuit version not 5. is this how it should be connected photo (2).JPG
     
  16. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Reverse return refers to " the how and why " the loops are connected in the field. What you have there is a " close header ". If you turn one side of a close header over and call it a reverse return, you really have a over thought close header with no gain, one way or another. NOT a reverse return header.
    Eric
     
  17. Cain

    Cain Member

    Am I to understand this right, it makes no difference how I connect the circuits? will all three circuits experience even loads?
     
  18. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Basically no difference because of the short header. The pressure drop from one end to the other would be minimal or none at all
     
  19. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    "Am I to understand this right, it makes no difference how I connect the circuits? will all three circuits experience even loads?"
    Much ado about nothing. What do you presume to be the consequence if you don't have "even loads"?
    Do you think the heat pump cares if it evenly collects from each loop or gets more btu's from one than another?
    I'm not picking on you, it is just more commonly accepted hogwash that we have to reverse return and have even loads and like sized loop lengths........
    While all good practice, and nothing should be done haphazardly, none are deal breakers in their absence.
     
  20. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You have 600 ft per circuit, how much do you think the pressure drop will change if one circuit is 601 ft long? 0.17%....

    I suggest you read this article to understand the small impact even a 10% difference in pressure drop.

    http://earthsensitivesolutions.blogspot.co.at/2013/08/is-your-engineer-dumber-than-bag-of.html
     

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