Connecticut No consiste

Hi,
I have (2) 3 ton Climate Master Genesis heat pumps (both in the basement), an HBX ECO-1000 version 1.10, (2) Unico systems (one in the attic and one in the basement), a TACO box from the HBX going to the water tank in a 4,000 sq. ft. 1860 Victorian in CT. The system was installed in 2009 and it has been a nightmare. I've spent a fortune on electricity and repairs and cannot go one month without having to work on it.

The company that installed it did not stand behind their work. They kept telling me it was because my house was not properly insulated. One year later, I had foam insulation blown into the walls and attic and nothing changed the electric bill even though I concurrent to the geo installation had a 43 panel solar array installed thinking it would off-set the electric bills. I also had previously replaced all the windows with heat mirrored argon gas filled double paned windows. The electric bills in the winter have run $800.00+ per month.

I called in every company's rep to help. When I called Climate Master I was told the units were not sold by them. They had been diverted and they would not provide support - hence I have had to pay every time they fail or there is a problem.

Today, both pumps have siezed up. I called HBX and immediately got help over the phone. The system does not automatically change from cold weather to hotweather and I have to do it manually. There were two items not programmed correctly. (I don't know if it was me or the last guys who worked on the equipment) and although I had selected always cold and turned off the heat demand, the heat kept over riding the system. HBX instructed me to turn the zone module off and turn on user 3 way valve to get the heat to stop over riding the cooling.

I just threw the circut breaker off for the pumps. Here are my questions:
1. how long should I wait until I turn them on to see if the heat pumps will work?
2. once the red light is on showing the pumps have seized up - do I have to call in someone again to do something to the wiring or will they reset themselves now that the HBX is correctly telling them what to do?
1 Deb,
2 Assumptions: 1) "Both pumps seized up" is the same as "Unit Compressors shut down on a fault".
3 2) "Opened the breaker to the Pumps" is the same as "Opened Breaker to Geothermal Units".
4
5 Opening the breaker to a Geothermal Unit, then Reclosing the breaker will reset the protective feature that shut down the compressor. It will be ready to run.
6
7 An exception would be if a component failed, such as the 24 vac transformer that powers the contactor/relay which supplies power the compressor. I had this problem after a losing one of two power leads to the house.
8
9 1. how long should I wait until I turn them on to see if the heat pumps will work?
10 On a protective trip, I would look at the LED which flashes the trip code before opening the Geothermal Unit breaker. A home owner trained in electrical safety could do the same, otherwise don't open up the Unit while the breaker is closed.
11
12 You can take a look at the Thermostat /Controller to determine why the protective trip occurred if you have that option, and fix the issue if it's a component set up issue as you saw with the HBX manual setup requirement.
13
14 I would treat the Geothermal Unit the same as a computer and turn the power back on after a short delay less than a minute if I knew what caused the trip and took any required action.
15
16 2. once the red light is on showing the pumps have seized up - do I have to call in someone again to do something to the wiring or will they reset themselves now that the HBX is correctly telling them what to do.
17 Cycling the power breaker will reset the trip/fault sensed by the protective circuits and the Geothermal Units will be ready to run.
18
19 If your Units had been under warranty (which they aren't from what I read) or Money Is No Object, call someone every time your Unit Trips.
20 Otherwise keep asking questions on this website and continue learning how your system works. 



mrrxtech, Today at 10:49 AM 
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Deb, move you post to a new thread! We will be happy to help then.

Thanks for your help and insight.
1 Deb,
2 Assumptions: 1) "Both pumps seized up" is the same as "Unit Compressors shut down on a fault".
3 2) "Opened the breaker to the Pumps" is the same as "Opened Breaker to Geothermal Units".
4
5 Opening the breaker to a Geothermal Unit, then Reclosing the breaker will reset the protective feature that shut down the compressor. It will be ready to run.
6
7 An exception would be if a component failed, such as the 24 vac transformer that powers the contactor/relay which supplies power the compressor. I had this problem after a losing one of two power leads to the house.
8
9 1. how long should I wait until I turn them on to see if the heat pumps will work?
10 On a protective trip, I would look at the LED which flashes the trip code before opening the Geothermal Unit breaker. A home owner trained in electrical safety could do the same, otherwise don't open up the Unit while the breaker is closed.
11
12 You can take a look at the Thermostat /Controller to determine why the protective trip occurred if you have that option, and fix the issue if it's a component set up issue as you saw with the HBX manual setup requirement.
13
14 I would treat the Geothermal Unit the same as a computer and turn the power back on after a short delay less than a minute if I knew what caused the trip and took any required action.
15
16 2. once the red light is on showing the pumps have seized up - do I have to call in someone again to do something to the wiring or will they reset themselves now that the HBX is correctly telling them what to do.
17 Cycling the power breaker will reset the trip/fault sensed by the protective circuits and the Geothermal Units will be ready to run.
18
19 If your Units had been under warranty (which they aren't from what I read) or Money Is No Object, call someone every time your Unit Trips.
20 Otherwise keep asking questions on this website and continue learning how your system works. 



mrrxtech, Today at 10:49 AM 
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Deb, move you post to a new thread! We will be happy to help then.

 

Deb,

welcome here.

Lets start with the bad news that your issue is that your installer has combined a water-water system with a high velocity air ducting. That fact that they used 2 small w-w heat pumps instead of one larger one tells me that they are not very evolved, since using only one would have been significantly cheaper.
In order to get the temps needed by the air handlers to put out significant BTUs (either for cooling or for heatings) the water has to be made very hot or very cold, especially when you pipe it through a buffer tank. This itself will make the system relatively inefficient.
Sometimes you don't have a choice, since you have to play with the cards you got, especially in an old Victorian.
So your design and setup (combined with an energy intensive delivery system: Unico) renders your geo system relatively inefficient. Did you have radiators in your house before? Why didn't they use the radiators for heat?

Warranty: Climatemaster did not sell you the system, but your installer did. While they warranty the heat pumps for 10 years, there might have been a shorter warranty period on them in 2009. 5 years was standard back then. In addition, they warranty their heat pumps, not the system itself. So far your heat pups seem to have been running fine, just very inefficient.

If your buffer tank is at 46F, that appears to be close to the heat pumps low temp lockout. So this is again a system design (flow combined with temperature) issue, and your controller seems to lower the temperature a bit too much.

We would need more info to be specific and to be of any help.

Take some pics, post them here. Make some drawing how the pipes are running and post them here.
Pipes from the loop field to the 2 heat pumps, what kind of water pumps do you have? Do you have any design drawings from the installer?

 

Thank you very much. I will take the pictures and upload them.

Right now, I've pulled apart a Stihl FS90 (by watching Youtube) and I've got the carb apart. I have 2 sons and no matter what equipment I buy, they manage to screw it up. I think they think it will get them out of the work. I am determined to understand how things work so I stop getting taken advantage of.

My guess is the pictures and complete story won't be added here until very late tonight.

This is the first light at the end of this tunnel I've been in. I've kept great records and have pictures to sort through to provide the complete information.

I can't thank you and everyone who can shed some light on this nightmare enough.

Sincerely,
Deb

 

Deb,
On any 2 Cycle engine with Oil & Gas mixture, such as outboard motor for a boat, yard equipment, chainsaw... You need to drain the fuel each year for storage at the end of the season or the oil will clog the carb when the gasoline evaporates.

If you store yard equipment where wasps can get to them, they'll build a mud nest in the exhaust and it won't start until cleaned out.

For an outboard boat motor, disconnect the fuel and run the engine while it's still in the water until it runs out of gas to be sure the engine will start the next time you want to go out on the water. Otherwise you'll need a carburetor cleaning or overhaul to get the dried oil out of it.

I view the 2 cycle engine as one of the worst ideas our society has come up with. Constant trouble plus you get to breathe the burning oil while you work or play, also not such a good idea.

 

Hi mrrxtech,
The FS90 is a 4 stroke but you still have to mix the gas and oil like it is a 2 stroke. I told my sons to run out the gas on all our equipment at the end of the season, put stabilizer in the gas during the season and neither, nither, nor was or ever have been accomplished with either son. It has been only a dream that having 2 sons would allow me luxury of just gardening. Instead, they continually cripple my artistic gardening talents by abusing the equipment I purchase to make their jobs less painful.
I finished the carb clean out, changed the air and fuel filters, the spark plug and put it all back together. Feeling really proud of my first endeavor only to see a screw is still sitting on my desk! Oh well, I will go back and find its home later today.
Then I have to watch some more videos to see how to start it!
Sincerely,
Deb

 

I am starting from the beginning and sending you the contracts and the geo link project report he provided. Please note, I have a zillion emails back and forth asking him why the information was based on Water Furnance and not what he was proposing on the contract. His reply was the information was the same for the products he proposed.
Also, please note he did not instal either of the products he has on the contracts. When questioned again, he said "these were better". I asked for information about their Energy Star rating and could not find anything.

 

These pictures show the well digger, the pipes they used and where they dug the wells, in the front of the house.

 

From the moment they installed the system, rust started on all the equipment in the basement.

 

pictures of the system

 

lots more

 

How many wells do you have?
More inside pics would be helpful.

So they contracted you with a Econar heat pump, then with a water furnace, and then they installed 2 Climatemaster water-water. Can you look at the red circulator pumps and take a picture.

You don't have a water-air system, you have water-water with high velocity air handlers.

 

continued

 

Today's pictures show I had to remove all the molded insulation to have a home energy audit. Now that the pumps are cold I have a ridiculous moisture problem. Will you also please recommend the correct insulation I need for the pipes? I cannot have puddles of water to add to my misery.

 

These were taken just now to show the difference without the insulation on the pipes.

 

please let me know if this is enough pictures

 

There are 2 wells.
Did I provide the pictures of the circulator pumps you want?
Yes, the contracted equipment was never installed.

 

My mistake. They only had a water to air equation not a water to water.
This is what Climate Master told me:
Debra, thank you for contacting ClimateMaster. Your units were sold to Carrier NE. I have copy Garth Gibson, ClimateMaster regional mgr. asking if he can give us some direction regarding the process.
Regards,

Donna Davis
Warranty Administrator
ClimateMaster
1 800 299-9747 ext. 208

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 11:25 AM
To: Donna Davis
Subject: Fwd: submission for rebate and adding more vents
Hi Donna,

The units are:
036AGC01CFCS L14430199

036AGC01CFCS L14398443

As you can see from his email on July 10, David Corcoran (owner of D & D Plumbing) said he sent his performance tests to Climate Master. The tests were performed for the second time on July 2, 2009. Where would he be sending these? He is not answering my questions. David said the first time his guys conducted the tests they did not come out with the same EER and COP performance numbers as the company said they should. That is why he redid the tests.

I am trying to get the $1,500 rebate from my local utility (CL & P) in CT. Mark Foley said he would honor the rebate if the units show they are running at the same EER and COP levels as the product literature states. Technically, NU is following the National program's model and looking at water to air systems because they are the only ones on the Energy Star list. Mark said if the numbers for my water to water are as good as the minimum for the Energy Star products, I would be granted the rebate.

Sincerely,
Deb


Begin forwarded message:

From: "David Corcoran" <ddhvac@hotmail.com>
Date: July 10, 2009 12:55:25 PM EDT

Subject: Re: submission for rebate and adding more vents

Deb, the test went to climate Master for performance verification, then it will be returned to me, I will forward it to Mr. Folly as soon as I have it.
----- Original Message -----

To: CT S - 1 389799 Dave
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 11:27 AM
Subject: submission for rebate and adding more vents

Hi Dave,

I don't know why my office is stuffy. I have to keep a fan on to keep the air circulating.

How long does Mark Foley take to respond once you submit the test?

I have a conference call on Tuesday @ 1:00. Please let me know what day you will be coming next week.

Thanks,
Deb

 

Yes, the units are energy efficient and exceed energy star efficiency requirements. But the whole system is designed very inefficient, so it does not matter if the heat pumps are OK. Can your a picture of the flow center, which is the box with the 2 black pumps on it (you have 2 of them).