Maryland Newly installed flow center has air in the lines.

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Steve Cocklin, Apr 5, 2016.

  1. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    We have a Water Furnace Premier 2, 6 ton unit , IntelliZone and 7-200 foot wells. The system was installed in 2000 and has function as expected. Recently one of the pumps went out on the flow center and the entire flow center had to be replaced. The flush cart was brought in to flush the system for about 2 hours. None of the Environol antifreeze was filtered during the flush.

    The flow center now gurgles on start up and continues but less after about 20 seconds, both pumps where burped. I asked the tech and he said this was normal. I don’t recall the old flow center sounding as loud as the newly installed unit.
     
  2. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I'll note you had no question in your thread.

    But you're right. You don't want any air in there. A "standard" flush cart "may" have some issue purging a loopfield your size.
     
  3. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    Sorry, yes my question was is this normal, I take it that I should call the certified waterfurnace installer back and ask him to remove the air from my loop?
     
  4. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes. Call whomever back and make sure there air has been removed.

    For us, we purge until the solution is clear. Then we purge some more. Then we deadhead the outlet of our purge cart to see if there is any change in water level. If a drop in water level, there is still air in there.

    Check your pressure drops afterwards to ensure adequate flows.
     
  5. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    Thank you.
     
  6. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    When the tech was last here they were using a home built cart, they did not have a return pipe drop into the reservoir, instead they let the loop antifreeze run full throttle into the top of the reservoir creating sudsing and agitation. They did not have a 10 or 1-micron filter bag and they did not deadhead the unit to see if there was a drop in the level inside the
    reservoir.

    I watched the procedure for flushing a loop on Geothermal University,



    Is the procedure on the above video the correct procedure to use when flushing or purging a ground loop?
     
  7. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You tricked me and made me go back to school. But yes that is the general idea in the video.

    You do need the return to come below water level as you've noted. Otherwise you can't see when the bubbles stopped and the air is removed.

    Do not worry too much about the homemade cart. We use an inline filter and have 3-way valves that allow us to reverse the flow.
     
  8. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What Chris said, plus the filtration of the return fluid must be screened. I do not agree with the micron mesh as it reduces flow possibly, but it must be filtered. We use a well screen that is cut to 20 thousands.
    Eric
     
  9. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    Thank you all, I know they do not have filtration so I'll see if I can find some well screen for the techs when they show up.
     
  10. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    I'm having trouble finding well screens, I have found 10 micron filter bags on the Grainger site with a flow rate rated at 60 GPM, The loop is 7-200 foot wells 1 1/4 ID, the system was flushed for the first time 3 weeks ago since the install (over 15 years ago). I watch the flush and the Environol looked clean so would the 10 micron bag work?
     
  11. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    In the absence of well screen material, any filtration is better than no filtration. Just be watchful that if suddenly a pile of gunk comes out of the loop it does not overflow the bag and cause a big mess.
    Eric
     
  12. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We have an inline "spa?" filter on the purge cart that we can bypass if more flow is needed. Something like this - http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41td+es3aYL._SY300_.jpg

    Mind you it's on the outlet of our heat pump, so the junk could still wreck our pump if it's really bad and we don't shut if off in time.
     
  13. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    Thanks for your advice, I ordered 2- 7 inch diameter x 32 inch welded polyester felt filter bags, one 100 microns and one 10 microns. They say the bags have a flow rate of 120GPM, I'll post what happens after the flush service next week.
     
  14. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Steve,
    For the cost of one flush you can buy the items you need to perform your own loop flush. I'm betting you'll do a better job at getting the air out, since you own the home and the system. There should be no air in your system after a flush.
    Here are a few ideas that might help you out:

    Filter with bypass, isolation, and open position, with clear housing, the one I use from Home Depot made by GE with a Lexan Body. You can add hose fittings so you can use short sections (15 feet) of new garden hose that most places sell now days.

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Clear...MERCH=RV-_-rv_nav_plp_rr-_-NA-_-202073874-_-N

    My Flush Cart, a Wayne 120 vac/220vac swimming pool pump mounted on a board that I place over a plastic 55 gallon drum for initial flush then switch to a 4 inch PVC stand pipe to monitor level while removing the rest of the air. I use a Tygon return line from the loop to monitor for air.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WAYNE-P...121175?hash=item488365a1d7:g:NSwAAOSwstxVAOTw

    Watts Automatic Air Removal Float valve from ebay, that you can place at a high point to remove the air you miss.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WATTS-0...517494?hash=item1c622293b6:g:ooQAAOSwezVWzxXi


    Watts bladder tank used to use as a surge tank and make up tank as cooling and heating seasons change the total volume of your loop, from ebay:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hot-Water-H...361526?hash=item25b9e1a036:g:7x0AAOSwzvlW9Xwu

    The flush cart, filter and hoses would allow you to replace your old geothermal unit with a new one at a substantial savings. Ask me how or see ebay or Ingrams for Geothermal Heat Pumps.
    My Brother just installed the Inverter/Variable Speed Compressor Daikin System. He was told the IRS tax reduction today is not worth the trouble or expense to pay someone who is Certified to do the install in order to "Qualify" for the rebate.
    One more thing, I was told if you do your own install and still want the IRS Tax "Rebate", have a licensed individual inspect your install and pay him so you can use his license number on the IRS form. That seems fair enough.

    I left pictures of my set up, cart and bladder tank for Milkweed. Do a search and see if you can find our conversation so you can see the pictures.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
  15. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    Thanks this is great info, I was thinking of building my own flush cart and this info is a good start. The techs and flush cart are showing up in about 30 minutes, I post what happens.
     
  16. Steve Cocklin

    Steve Cocklin New Member

    The head service boss came out on this one and did the flush, I had him run the flush with the 100 micron filter bag which turned brown but no large chunks found. He did the vertical ground loop first, switched to the geo system loop and then switch to the entire loop; earth and geo system. When he was done he deadheaded the flush cart and allow the system to pressurize up to 48 psi. When we fired-up the geo system there was silence, I had to touch the pumps to make sure they were running.

    mrrxtech, could you please point me too the pictures of your flush cart system ?

    Thanks again to all for your good advice.
     
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Maybe you can elude where a "license number" is coming from. There is no such thing as a geothermal license, and there is no requirement to provide a license number on IRS Form f5695, which is the one for geothermal tax credit claims.

    If you don't know the facts, don't make comments here which might mislead people.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  18. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

     
  19. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Doc,
    I'm guilty of believing another "Professional", the ones at Ingrams Water & Air in Paducka Kentucky.
    I called them for a price on a Daikin Inverter/Variable Speed Compressor Unit and as part of the conversation, the "Professional" told me this information without my asking. Who would have thought that someone who deals in Geothermal Heat Pump sales daily wouldn't know what he was talking about.

    From Directions For Form 5695:
    Manufacturer’s certification - For purposes of taking the credit, you can rely on the manufacturer’s certification in writing that a product is qualifying property for the credit. Do not attach the certification to your return. Keep it for your records.

    Much of your questioning causes me to violate Your unwritten rule that a discussion thread should be kept short to better enable you to solve problems for geo owners.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  20. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    You're Welcome Steve. If these links don't work for the Pump Cart pictures, I'll try another post later.
    https://www.geoexchange.org/forum/attachments/0307161918-jpg.1641/
     

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