New York changes

Discussion in 'Tax Credits, Rebates and Incentives' started by zach, Jul 5, 2011.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You are not fully correct here. A ground source heat pump uses electricity to extract heat from the ground (we have gas fired compressors as well), also referred to as the source. It does not generate heat, but part of the electricity it uses to extract the heat from the ground will also end up as heat in the house.
    The source is to the vast majority solar powered, since the temperature of the upper layers of the earth is determined by solar radiation, especially in NYS without any surface geothermal activities. The geothermal gradient is very stable amount the U.S., it is roughly 1F increase in temperature for every 70 feet of depth. Thus the vast majority of the thermal heat energy of a 400ft borehole (200' average depth), and even more a horizontal system at 5' depth, is driven by the solar radiation, not by geothermal activity coming from nuclear decay in the core of this planet.
    So what is the difference between a solar thermal system on the roof, where a pump circulates water through, and one buried below ground? It uses the same source energy. Each needs external electricity for pumps to work.
    Now spin this further, what if I embed the one on the roof into concrete to increase its thermal mass to store the energy better. Or pump it under ground to store the solar thermal energy there? Is the source different? Of course not. Both utilize solar radiation.

    The NYS statue requires you to utilize solar radiation to heat your home, but it does not require you that a minimum percentage has to come from solar radiation, nor does it exclude systems using a small portion external power (think circulation pump again) to extract the energy better.

    You are correct that the source energy for air sources heat pump is also solar radiation.

    The simple question here is: Would this kind of technology work without solar radiation. The answer is clearly no.

    There are heat pumps which so not use solar radiation, such as heatpump on a building loop, which is conditioned by a boiler and a chiller. They work without solar radiation.

    Stay tune, the first case in court is scheduled in the middle of September.
     
  2. kls1250

    kls1250 New Member

    Thank you for this discussion. I have crafted my response to the audit denial after researching more on the industry confusion with terminology - the dual meanings of "geothermal." I think that is where my auditor is coming from. Will report back. If I am successful, I will share the content of my argument.

    Please let me know where the first court case is taking place this month. I would be interested in watching the proceedings if it is in WNY.

    Thanks!
     
  3. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I like rambling.
     
  4. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Your auditor knows this, trust me. It was explained to NYS multiple times. Off the record we were told that NYS is trying to get any kind of tax income they can get. The mediator told me that he agrees with our position since it is fully documented and scientifically sound, but was told to disagree by his superiors.
     
    johnny1720 likes this.
  5. kls1250

    kls1250 New Member

    So where and when are these court cases taking place?
     
  6. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I have to check...
     
  7. arkie6

    arkie6 Active Member Forum Leader

    If they apply this solar tax credit to ground source heat pumps based on the arguments presented, then they would also have to apply it to air source heat pumps and mini-split heat pumps based on the the fact that the same arguments can be made for air source. I'm sure the ratio is lower in NY, but down here in the south, there is probably a greater than 100:1 ratio of air source heat pumps installed compared to ground source heat pumps. If the state treasury officials realize this, they won't like the impact to their bottom line by extending this solar tax credit to all heat pumps.
     
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree. Nevertheless, the source for the energy is solar radiation.
     
  9. the blur

    the blur Member

    What is the current status of the NY deduction / credit? I can't seem to find any concrete information.
     
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    NY solar tax credit being eligible is in the courts right now, past first trial, first ruling to be expected Jan 2016.
    New NY geo tax credit passed by the legislature (senate 46-0, assembly 105-0), it is on Gov Cuomo's desk to sign into law. It is written for every geo system completed after Sep 1st 2015.
     
  11. kls1250

    kls1250 New Member

    Senate Bill 2905 has passed both Senate and Assembly but has not gone to the Governor yet. Senator Ortt's staff member says they must wait for the governor to ask for the bill to be sent to him. If signed, the bill will add a new section 606(g-3) to the tax law specifying geothermal tax credit effective for installations on/after January 1, 2015.
    http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S2905-2015
     
  12. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You guys are doing. They made green power illegal in Ohio.
     
  13. the blur

    the blur Member

    Another month gone by, and still no signature by Cuomo. No wonder he is disliked across the state.
     
  14. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    Maybe he'll sign after the federal credit expires. Then no individual will be able to afford an install, and no $5K NYS rebates will ever have to be paid out.
     
  15. the blur

    the blur Member

    Teachers despise cuomo. Legit gun owners despise him. Apparently he likes to be well hated. I doubt he'll sign it, even though it got zero nay's.
     
  16. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Cuomo's staff are working on the due diligences in reviewing the two bills for legality, budget impact and other impacts. No reason to hate him and his staff for doing their job very diligently and making sure that the interest of NYS protected.
     
  17. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    No hate here, just disappointment in the fact that the rebate is incentive for a homeowner to make a move toward space conditioning that has a benefit for both the wallet and the environment, and the hesitation to me casts doubt on its passage. Makes me wonder how dedicated society is to the environmental cause.
     
  18. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    They are dedicated. But there is a process involved they are following diligently. Much support so far in Albany from the Governour's staff, the Public Service Commission, the Department of Public Services, NYSERDA etc. Keep in mind that both Bills were drafted in March this year, so this is moving along rather quickly.
     
  19. Stickman

    Stickman Member Forum Leader

    Fair enough - point taken.
     
  20. the blur

    the blur Member

    If Cuomo wanted to pass it, he would do it in an overnight session, like he did with the safe act, antigun laws, against law abiding citizens. Few hours and done, while no one had time to think about it.
     

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