New User, Pond Loop Quote

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by Makurai, Nov 28, 2010.

  1. Makurai

    Makurai New Member

    Hi everybody,

    I'm planning on having a geothermal heating system installed in my 1975 home (3000 sq.ft) in Quebec, Canada. It's currently using oil as heating, has properly-sized air ducts, and it'll be a bi-energy (keeping the oil furnace), closed loop pond system (the property has a completely private pond, saving me quite a bit in excavation costs). It's my first time doing this, and I'm dealing with a very reputable company, but I'd still love to get your opinion on the quote I've been given. Here it is (translated from French)... does this seem like a fair price, and a good setup?

    Carrier Infinity GT-PX

    • Brand*: Carrier*
    • Model*: 50YDS*049 SPLIT GT-PX*
    • Double Gründfoss
    • Capacity : 4 tons (2 stages)
    • Coolant*: R410A
    • Thermostat: Edge digital (programmable)
    • 1500’ pond loop, 1’’ ¼ high density polyethylene

    - Doesn't include excavation costs or high-voltage electrical connections.

    15*495.00 $ + taxes
  2. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I am not a proponant of hdpe in a pond. I would prefer a "slim jim" if it were me, but! The success of your system really relies on the skill and experiance of the installing company and their track record in your area. Was the price you quoted in beaver pelts or paper money? :D Sorry could not resist.
  3. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    did the bidder do a Manual J heat load calc?

    How much of the heat load is the Geo unit going to handle?

    The price seems fair, you should make sure you know what you can expect to get for what you are going to pay.
  4. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Ditto on the Man J

    Ducts sized for fossil-fired hot air are often NOT big enough for geo hot air

    Make sure that pond is deep enough to provide heat in the dead of a Quebec winter
  5. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Man J in canada

    Hoping to clarify - Manual J's are a US-side term. We have our own standards under CSA but basically all the same.

    A heat loss heat gain will be required at some stage prior to installation to confirm sizing. I see nothing wrong, but that is based on the limited information provided. Are you supplying your own excavation?

    I just don't like seeing quotes that exclude items unless it is at the request of the homeowner.

    Also, I'm assuming there is a reason for the split vs. a package?
  6. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    Confirm sizing on circ pumps as, based on design, you'll likely have little headloss in that pipe sizing, but the gpm may keep you in the 2 pump range. Just something to confirm.
  7. Makurai

    Makurai New Member

    Wow. I guess not understanding the jargon is what I get for getting a Fine Arts degree. Most of this is Star Trek lingo to me. But thanks for all the input!

    I'm attaching some jpg's of the system analysis that they gave me - this was based on a professional home ''Eco-energy'' inspection, and takes into account heat loss, duct size, etc... Sorry for pics rather than scans, my printer just died this morning. Do these figures help to know whether or not this is a good setup? (two more jpg's in the next post)

    The pond loop idea came after considering all other options - apparently this is the most effective setup you can get, given water's thermal conductivity.

    I'll be taking care of the excavation myself - having the geo company take care of it meant some pretty steep middleman charges. Same goes for the electrical work.

    The company checked the ducts, and they're big enough - apparently if they had been half an inch smaller in diameter they would've been too small, but somehow I got lucky.

    The pond is about two acres, and 12-16 feet deep. The company has done many such setups - they prefer to wait for the pond to freeze over, then deploy the coils and wait for the spring thaw so the coils can sink to the bottom, fastened to concrete blocks.

    So... yay or nay?

    Attached Files:

  8. Makurai

    Makurai New Member

    Oh, and I'm fresh out of beaver pelts and Grizzly claws, so I'm definitely sticking to our wonderfully colorful Canadian dollars for the transaction. The Chief wouldn't let me trade in my daughter...

    Attached Files:

  9. Makurai

    Makurai New Member

    Also, I think I'll opt out of the water heater/desuperheater option on the Carrier GT-PX - it would have added $2000 + tax to my final bill, and according to the cost analysis, would only save me about $250 a year on my hot water heating bill, if I were using it full time.

    Since this is a secondary property, and I'm only using it occasionally, I turn on the oil-fired hot water heater when I'm there, and turn it off when I leave, I figured it wasn't worth the extra expense. Does this make sense? It is kind of annoying to know that it's factory installed, and that I can't add it somewhere down the road...

    One piece of good news; I figured out exactly what the government subsidy will be, and I'll be getting $7675 back from Provincial and Federal governments!
  10. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Based on info you posted, unit handles 95% of heating requirement and has balance point of 8*f. Heat loss calc indicates 73720 btu's cooling load looks suspiciously like a default number.
    that said, design appears sensible.
    DSH does not sound practical for you.
  11. Makurai

    Makurai New Member

    Thanks Joe, I'll follow up with the geo company... much appreciated!
  12. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree with Joe that DSH does not now make sense

    How much would it be to have the DSH option included on the unit but not initially plumbed / tanked etc?

    Use of house and utility costs might change in future. presence of DSH might be attractive to a future buyer. If the 'include now' cost is under $1k, I might still consider it in your case.
  13. Makurai

    Makurai New Member

    DSH Costs

    They never distinguished between the cost of the DSH without the install - it was $1995.00 plus taxes for the whole option. I think it's already been ordered though...
  14. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The DSH heat exchanger and circulator is factory added to the unit so there may be no turning back there. However buffer tank and process pipe could still be forgone.
  15. Makurai

    Makurai New Member

    Update: Thanks for the suggestion, Engineer! I spoke with the company rep and having the DSH included (without the plumbing, tank, etc...) was only $795.00 extra. They'd already received my unit, but are now exchanging it for the one with the DSH. Nice to know I'll have the option down the line if/when I start using the house more regularly, or if oil ever reaches $400/barrel...
  16. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Glad to have been of assistance

    Circumstances permitting, plumbing a DSH and a buffer tank is not out of the question as a DIY project which could save you some green when you go to do it.

    Allowing space for a buffer tank as well as running a pair of insulated 1/2" CPVC lines between the unit and the future tank location during rough-in would be time well spent.

    Refer to the oft-published diagram here by Bergy for exact plumbing details
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  17. Makurai

    Makurai New Member

    Interesting... know of any resource online where I might get a step-by-step, or general instructions?
  18. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Better check

    your local plumbing codes. CPVC would not be allowed in our neck o' the woods.

  19. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If geo brand permits pex is DIY friendly.
    Lots of pipe alternatives, though less rigid is desirable to keep from telegraphing noise.
  20. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Plumbers use CPVC for everything here except the last few feet to the DSH connections are typically braided hose. I've never heard a whit of objection from inspectors

    Geo is so rare here I doubt inspectors have the foggiest notion what they are looking at. I could probably tell them it is a central clothes washing machine or water softener. Once they learn it is AC they want to see a disco, a condensate line draining >2' from the house and adequate fireblocking around any ductwork. Any plumbing beyond the condensate line they likely assume belongs to the loop, if they know what a "loop" is, and worry naught about it.

    I'm open to better ideas, Bergy - what piping material would you like to see?

Share This Page