New to me

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by cattracker16, Jan 3, 2009.

  1. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    Hi i'm new to the forum, and new to the whole geo world.

    1st off let me say i like the site, lots of information to soak up.

    I'll start this off by saying i'm building a new home for me and the misses. it's just a little shy of 1800 sq ft. the heating system is a "hydron" geo module.

    I'm going with an open loop just because the resorces are easy to get to and plentyful. The unit itself is a stainless steel exterior, "looks really nice in the basement" the heating guy has never installed one of these units. or for that matter any geo unit. myself being a well driller/ pump installer have a bundle of plumbing experiance.

    So now you see the problem i've been the plumbing fool for the system not knowing exactually what i'm dealing with. I've seen some other systems that are baisicly the same as what i have with some exceptions. The exceptions are besides the geo unit i went ahead and installed some radiant heat tubes in the floor of the garage, which i see is a whole new monster to deal with.
    The unit is set up for the extra system, i'm just not sure i've got the know how on how to make everything do what it's supposed to.

    So far i've installed the water supply to the unit, but is it supposed to have a flow control valve? My water system is capable of putting out close to 35 GPM.

    Is there any diagrams out there that show the proper way to install/ supply the radiant heat tubing?

    For the radiant heat i do have a 30 gal tank, 2 pumps and some other misc items. Just not 100% sure how this is going to go togather without a diagram of all the misc valves and etc.

    Maybe i should've made the "title" to the thread "in over my head?"

    any advice/Diagrams would be great and much appreciated.

  2. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Welcome Brother

    Welcome from a fellow well driller,

    I have been doing geo a long time and would be glad to help. I am fairly new to the board and have been very impressed with info attained.
    If you pm me your e-mail addy I can send you some pics.

    "maybe someone on the board could coach me through my computer ignorance, and I can put them up for all to see"????

    Open Loop 101

    You need a high quality flow meter installed on the outgoing side of unit
    Provide a maximum 3gpm per ton of load to unit
    isolation valves on in and out side
    boiler drains on in and out side
    A zone valve on the outgoing side

    Plumb the unit
    wire the zone valve
    turn on water
    turn on unit
    hopefully zone valve opens
    using iso valves determine which one causes the least amount of "roar"
    when throttled
    adjust chosen valve untill unit is recieving 3gpm per ton per flowmeter
    you should be finished.

    Water quality is an issue with open loops, deterioration of coil as well as mineral scale build up. Boiler drains allow you to circulate cleaning solution through the coil if neccesary, also to drain unit.
    Variable speed pumps are made to fit piece of the open loop puzzle, for obvious reasons, I assume you have one?
    Any questions?
    hope this helps:)
  3. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    Thanks for the warm welcome.

    Unit is plumbed with the exception of the radiant tube heat circuit. i have to add a 24 volt valve and a pressure reducer to the main water supply. good thing i used pvc for them circuits.

    This unit has 6 ports, 4-1" ports and 2-3/4" ports for domestic hot water. The top and bottum ports are source ports and 1". the middle ones are load in/out ports and 1". I've put the fresh water to the load ports is that correct?

    Unit is 4 ton which should require up to 12 GPM. The water system is a CP water system, also new to me.

    So lets say everything is operating correct on the water side of the system.

    moving to the radiant heat part.

    parts i have sitting there
    2) little circulating pumps "grunfos"
    30 gal insulated water tank.
    air release valve
    zone valve
    back flow preventer
    A port with 6 valves for radiant heat

    Hope all this helps. I'll try and get some pics up as to my plumbing etc.

    The sales man/ geo tech will be there tues or wendsday to fire up the unit. LOL talk about a dead line.

    Thanks for the help

  4. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    Hi Kenny,

    Sorry I missed the mark, I thought plumb the whole thing.
    I have never plumbed a radiant system, but this is what I know.
    Of the 4 1 inch ports, you should have a in and out, and load in out.
    The load is going to be your radiant load. The other in and out is for raw water to supply the coil.

    Obviously the circulator is to circulate the closed portion of the system. Your radiant heat. The zone valve should be on outgoing side of raw water to control flow to coil. The storage tank is plumbed into domestic supply hot water.
    Your 24volt controll wiring should be a real treat. lol good luck.
  5. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    Congratulations on choosing Hydron.

    You have come to the right place for info.

    I have attached some diagrams.

    Rather than me explaining them, how about if you check them out and ask questions.

    3 GPM per ton is required if your heat pump is on a closed loop system.

    2 GPM per ton is all that is needed on an open loop if the water temp is around 50°

    Hope this helps
  6. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    LOl your right on the 24 volt stuff, i'm going to let the sales rep or the furnas guy worry about that. me all i'm worried about is making sure i don't have any problems with leaks. I guess that's why they make couplings. LOL I was going to try and get the system ready to go today but I just don't know about getting the thurmostat wiring correct. I've got 8 wires and lots of letters. LOL i'm going to leave that to the furnas guy. I do have the source in/out right and the hot water preheater is ready too, just don't have the radiant part hooked up yet.

    The only problem i see is having to rely on this unit to heat the garage and the house at the same time. garage being the radiant heat part of the system.

    The taco valve is installed on the discharge line part of the system with the pressure reducer being on the inlet line, not sure about flow control yet i guess we'll havta throttle back and see how it preforms.

    The temp reading i get so far from the water is about 50. I was always under the assumtion that the water temp was around 54.

    Thanks again

  7. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    That is exactually what i have in the paper work i have sitting on the unit, it helps a slight bit. to no avail it doesn't show me where to put any of the air rolease valves, or boiler drains,little bitty pressure tank. besides how a guy is supposed to fill the system.

    Ok on filling the sealed system should i use the gycol solution or just use regular water. on filling with water it would be very easy just open a boiler drain and fill er up, but ifn i used a gycol i'll havta pump it in some how and then pressure it. Unless i'm just thinking wrong.
    I'm sure i'm just over thinking things.

  8. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Not being a radiant heat guy, I can't help you too much. But the radiant plumbing is no different that any other radiant system once you leave the storage tank.

    If you know any body familiar with radiant systems, they should be able to give you some pointers.
  9. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    I went to house today after work and took cam with me here are some pics

    The plumbing at the unit

    more of the same just dirrent angle

    what is this device for?

    And this controls the open/ close of water flow valve?

    a nice looking unit.

    the water tank. (before the plumbing)

    The schmatic

    which one makes the system run?

    Still have yet to see the system run, the heating contractor was scratchin his head like i was yestarday so's he didn't even have a clue on how to hook up the wiring to either the unit or the thermostat. not all the letters are corrosponding to each other. The thermostat is a honeywell 5320.

    hope ya enjoy the pics if nuttin else

  10. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I'll take a stab at this.

    The device is the third photo is the aquastat that senses the temp in the tank and controls the hot water function of the heat pump.

    The attachment below shows the wiring details except for the aquastat which would hook up to the HW terminal on the wiring block.

    It is recommended that you start the heat pump in cooling mode.

    To do this you can run a jumper wire from the R to the O terminals. You should hear a click. This is the reversing valve engaging. Leave that jumper in place and then jumper from R to Y1. This will start the fan and compressor.

    Before you do any of the above, you need to make sure that the flow valve will open and let the well water run through the heat pump. Starting the heat pump with out water is a very bad thing to do:mad::mad::mad:

    This is the sequence that we go through when starting a heat pump for the first time.

    While the heat pump is running, you want to verify that it is blowing cold air and the water is leaving the heat pump warmer than when it comes in.

    Let it run for 5 minutes, then disconnect the Y1 wire and then the O wire.

    Do not disconnect the O wire first. !!!!

    Let the system rest for 5 minutes then jumper from R to Y1. The unit should now produce hot air and the water should be leaving cooler than entering.

    If any of this does not make sense, please do not proceed. Don't harm your heat pump by making a mistake in start up.
  11. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    Thank You for that post i copied and printed it off, i cannot be there to help fire up the unit. But i am goin to leave the printed doc out to the house for the sales rep and heating contractor.

    Just hoping that i don't have to call the sheetrock guys off for another day.

    I'll let ya know how things are progressing

  12. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I should have posted this last night.
  13. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    We got the system up and running, so far it's a smooth operation. i haven't plugged in the desuper heater for hot water yet.

    The radiant floor heat system is in a holding pattern, they sent the wrong pump, and forgot to send a fitting to plug the hole where the runco sensor goes. along with it needing 1 1/4" piping.

    The unit is spending much of it's time in aux heat, trying to get the whole house up to heat. Is there a way to set the aux heat kick in at more than 3 *? The thermo is a honeywell 5320. The location of thermo is in basement aprox 58* down = 70 ish up stairs.

  14. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I would turn off the aux heat. Unhook the W2 wire from the tstat.
  15. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    I've been playing with the system, flow rates etc. i have noticed that if i slow down the rate of the water flowing out the temp drops leaving the unit. i'm just wondering what the optumin temp is?

    The entering water temp is 50, when i slow down the water flow i can get the exiting water temp down to 38.

    Plugged in the desuper heater toady it started making hot water within a few minutes. :D

    On the aux heat all i have to do is take the w2 wire off? or disconnect the wires inside the unit?

    The sheet rock mudders had to turn down the heat today they said it got up to 80 upstairs.

  16. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The W wire what controls the aux heat.
  17. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    optimum temp varies with site conditions

    First of all, keep loop water/fluid from freezing.

    Lowering water flow saves water but costs some capacity / efficiency.

    You need to balance cost of providing water vs loss of efficiency.

    50 in 38 out is probably OK.
  18. cattracker16

    cattracker16 New Member

    Unit runs alot

    I checked the power meter yestarday and noted that basicly over nite it used 90 kw of power. The unit seems to be running an awful lot. Not sure if it has anything to do with it being -29 outside or not. LOL:eek: it is supposed to warm some this weekend.

    Before it cooled off and we moved the thermo up stairs the unit would cycle proper, start in stage 1 and then ramp up to stage 2 with the blower motor running. I'm thinking that the installer missed a wire when he wired up the thermometer? i guess only time will tell.

    when the system starts up now it's full open running in stage 2, we did unhook the aux heat,I have the temp set at 69, when it gets up to 69 degrees the fan continues to run and run i can hear the compressor kick when heat is needed, but it continues to run, if i put the temp down to 68 it shuts off right now.

    I'll monitor it when the temp rises 60 degrees from where it is now. supposed to be close to 30 this coming week.:D

  19. Waukman

    Waukman Member

    I keep one zone in my house set to 75. My 'typical' daily electric use is between 60 - 90 kwh per day. During this cold snap we hit 123 kwh for yesterdays consumption. In my case I know that my electric resistance coils didn't energize as expected, so this is 100% geo.

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