Pennsylvania New Home in Northeast PA

Hydrons are excellent units, made by Enertech, I'd put them on par with the 5 series from Waterfurnace. But nothing really beats the variable speed 7 series, mainly for comfort, but also for efficiency.
As stressed here, nothing is more important that the skills of the installer.
Your installer not doing a Manual J or a design report would not deter me, he might know what he is doing without it. I frequently give people estimates based on a guestimate, which is more economical. When actually do the job I look at it more closely, and sometimes put in a ton more or less. If it is more I cover that, if it is a ton less, I give people a discount. That way I can generate quotes and estimates quickly with low overhead, and be competitive in my pricing. I look at it as a win-win.
Most "design" reports are based on 2 numbers: heating and cooling load. The rest is generated more or less automatically based on standard settings, which in my opinion creates the illusion of precision. Given that is is based on weather data from Buffalo Airport, where actually none of my customers live at, and in my area BIN hours are 15% less 30 min north of the airport, and 60% more 45 min southeast of the airport. So all the design reports must be corrected anyway.
Tamar got burned the same way, her 1st installer undersized per geodesigner report her unit by a factor of 2 (3 tons). Then a design engineer came in later and generated a geodesigner report indicating 12 ton. Her current 7 ton unit seems to be right on target, following her monitoring system.

 

I really like Waterfurnce 7 series but saving $7,000 and going with the Hydron unit is tempting.

 

I hear you. There is really not that much reason to make the 7 series $7000 more expensive than the Hydron. But if that is the last word from your installer, ...there is really nothing wrong with a nice hydron dual stage. There are multiple models for the Hydrons, which one is he talking about?

 

John's most recent quote was the "Cold Climate Series", which looks to match up better with the 3 series (aka a value line), but I am purely looking at COPs and EERs, and I am a amateur hack, so I could be completely wrong.

 

Hydron model # HVC048A11LT1CSS. It is a 2 stage unit Cold Climate Series it is designed for Heating Climates according to the contractor and the Hydron website it puts more heat than the 4 ton 5 series.

 

Information I can find:




So, the Full stage Cooling on the Hydron has a better EER when compared to the WF 5 series, but lower overall BTUs, and it is only a single speed (so you will likely have de-humidification issues in the summer)

On the heating side, the Hydron produces more BTUs, but at a Lower COP, I am guessing that means that their "4 Ton" is likely a bit larger than a WF "4 Ton" but one of the experts would need to weigh in.

So you will get more heating from the Hydron Cold Climate, but at a lower efficiency (for heating) or with possible humidity issues (for cooling).

I still stand by my claim of it is likely a value line (lower COPs, single stage cooling), not that there is anything wrong with value priced equipment, but the reduction in cost is going to have to reduce something else (efficiency, comfort, etc).

I will stop ranting (maybe).

Edit: I miss-interpreted my data, aka I can't read.

 

You might want your contractor to check the Hydron Evolution series. A YT048 at 30* EWT and 12 GPM puts out 40,500 Btu's at 3.89 COP. This unit has the Aluminum Micro channel air coil. Plus may have a lifetime compressor and air coil warranty.

 

By no means did the contractor represent this to me as an equal to the waterfurnace 7 or 5 series. He just wanted to give me another less expensive option and the $7000 reduction in cost is tempting.

 

I never put anything but the high end revolution series in when it comes to Hydrons, plus I never installed anything less than dual stage HPs when it came to forced air for residential applications.

Live is too short to drink cheap and bad wine! And you shall not cut corners with geo. The $7K is less than $5K after the tax credits, but the 15-20% hit in lesser efficiency versus the 5 series, and it looks like 30-40% lesser efficiency versus the 7-series for the life of the system! It seems a too high price to pay!

 

Look at actual operating costs not just % of efficiency. I know Doc to be extremely progressive and cutting edge with his systems and have the utmost respect for him.
That said I know that a half COP might be the penalty for a lower end unit and operating cost consequence might be south of $100....bang for the buck might be something to add to the equation.

 

Joe certainly has a point here.

I look at the 7 series saving about $200-$250 annually in our market (13 cents/kwh) for a typical 4 ton application compared to the 5-series. In Michigan the electrical rate might be half so you save only half.
Now, compared to the less efficient Hydrons your savings are potentially twice as much, lets say $400-$500 annually. This is after taxes, versus again $7K premium before and $5K after tax credits.
Now you have your system for lets say 30 years. Electricity prices increase by an average of 4% per year over the last 30 years, meaning the $$$ gap will widen.

If you assume $400 difference between the Hydron and the 7 series, in 10 years it is $570, in 20 years $850 annually, and in 30 years $1250 annually.
Again, that assumes a certain price for electricity, Joe's market might be very different for this kind of math. You also might decide to move to the Caribbean in 2 years, then this all goes out of the window, too.

 

I still have not made a decision but I am leaning toward the 7 series. But I have a question does the 3 ton 7 series produce the same heat as the 4 ton 5 series if the loops are the same size. I would have (2) 320 vertical loops.

 

The answer is no. Be careful, some installers here got burned slightly to follow some of the sizing software suggesting a 3 ton 7 series performs to same as a 4 ton 5 series. If you step down, do it because your load is significantly reduced, not because you now have a 7 series instead of a 5 series. The 7 series needs a bit more loop in general, since due to its higher COP, there is lesser heat coming from the compressor. Again, it comes down to your final load and your loop performance if that is really needed in the real world.

 

Yes, The Bin chart the one contractor gave me from the Geolink report actually showed the 3 ton 7 series producing more heat.

 

Yep, 7 series HPs perform great and are awesome units, but they cannot do magic. While they brought the gap between cooling and heating closer together, I keep the tonnage the same. If anything is good that it covers more bin hours before supplement comes on. So I seize them more generous for heating, since the they can modulate down in cooling. There is not really any oversizing anymore.
They all follow the printout from the geolink report, which is only as good as the algorithm created by the software programmer. If your loads are the ones you gave us before, in my book that is a 4 ton, weather a 7 series or a 5 series.
I cannot comment on your loop size, since I do not know your ground conditions, but (2) x 320' bores x 1.25" pipe sounds in the ballpark.

 

Thank you, None of the contractors could answer that for me. I don't think any of them have a lot of experience with the 7 series .

 

That is OK, the fundamentals of geo installation are the same. The rest is plug and play. Like I said, it simply cannot do magic beyond being a state of the art unit.

 

I selected a contractor and he is installing a 4 ton Geostar Sycamore with the advanced controls and performance monitoring. The house will have 4 zones controlled with the Intelli zone 2 system. The loop is vertical loop with (2) 375' deep wells with 1.25' pipe grouted.

 

Sounds good. Keep us posted.

 

I am a HVAC, GEOTHERMAL, SPF contractor in central VA,

SPF is a very pricey product, but there just is no insulation that can compare to the quality and performance of that product. IN FACT NO OTHER PRODUCT IN YOUR HOME WILL SAVE YOU MORE MONEY THAN SPF.
We sometimes see ourselves selling against our geothermal systems because that product saves more energy in your home than any other product in your home.
My advise spread for the complete SPF package and enjoy comfort you have never felt. Include your geothermal in your construction loan, utilize the tax credits and then let the saving help pay for your mortgage.
The savings are crazy.
I have one customer with 16,000 sq feet with a 5 ton zoned geo for basement and first floor and 4 ton split geo for the second floor with total SPF package, with utility bills around $180 a month in central VA

As far as equipment goes the Waterfurnace i7 doesn't come close to the Climatemaster Trilogy unit. We sell both products. The Trilogy is the most efficient machine on the planet. Rated by AHRI.
There is no comparison in the market to the Trilogy.
We sell Bosch as well so I know they are hard at work right now as well on the variable capacity.
Check out
www.Geothermalsystemsva.com