Pennsylvania New Home in Northeast PA

Joe,
Thank you, I will increase the insulation in the area's that don't have cathedral and I am looking into spray foam insulation some more. Maybe doing just the rim joist and cathedral ceiling area. Hopefully I can get some better numbers with a construction loan I can't go back and get more money. Unfortunately all of the contingency money I had plus some went to rock removal.

moey,
The insulation is Dow perimeter mate installed on the exterior of the basement walls over the liquid water proofing. All exposed insulation above grade is covered with a cement coating. The rim joist are suppose to be air sealed and batt insulation installed but I am going to relook into spray foam.

 

Id strongly suggest getting those spray foamed. Batt insulation is pretty much useless in that type of application. You may search on greenbuildingadvisor.com they have lots of information on insulation. Unfortunately most builders do the minimum when it comes to insulation and in some cases the minimum is useless.

 

One of the contractors got back to me with a cost analyst using Geolink design studio between a 3, 4 and 5 ton 7 series and 5 series using the manual j loads I provide him.
7 series
34 degree min loop temp, 88 degree max. Electric with Geo assistance water heater.
3 ton with a 630' vertical loop $1,356 per year
4 ton with a 805' vertical loop $1,350 per year
5 ton with a 820' vertical loop $1,350 per year

5 series
4 ton with a 660' vertical loop $1,529
5 ton with a 770' vertical loop $1,563

He feels a 3 ton 5 series is to small but a 3 ton 7 series would work since it produces the same heat as a 4 ton 5 series. Is this correct? If so based on the numbers above a 4 ton 5 series or a 3 ton 7 series might be my best options. His original recommendation was a 4 ton 5 series without the basement but admitted he did not do a manual j on the house. He will do his own manual j if he gets the job.

 

This is interesting...I hope the experts will comment on the 7 series needing so much more loop than the 5 series. I'm curious as to why Geolink would call for that.

I predict first cost is going to be very different for the different options you have listed. I also hope that the 34 degree minimum loop temp is not what's being used to size the loops, though maybe that's appropriate and a good idea in PA. I learned that it was not necessary nor desirable in MN.

 

He should do his own manual J to GET the job...

 

It takes little time to do a manual J and like Bergy, my first instinct is to provide one for every bid and advise folks to scrutinize people who don't.
That said I have had shoppers I met exclusively on line who gave me the vibe they were mining me for free design vs serious inquiries. In those cases I hold my cards much closer to the vest or throw out guestimates that can be honed once the clients interest seems more legit.

 

Our design paperwork is never left with the client until we have a signed contract. We do, however, sit down with them and go through
everything we did to arrive at our conclusions.

 

I like that ...show the design and say you can have when if we get the job.

 

There is no free lunch.

 

When I first started this process. I asked 3 contractors for pricing but I never expected to get 3 proposals with equipment sized so differently so I hired an engineer to do a manual J. I still want the contractors to do there own but I needed something to compare it too. I don't know if the contractors typically do a manual j before submitting a bid or the just base there bid off similar sized homes since none of them gave me there calculations. I am still tiring to decide which unit would work best a 3 or 4 ton 7 series or a 4 or 5 ton 5 series. Based on the Geolink software the 3 ton 7 series is probably my best option but I don't know how accurate that software is.

 

How do the contractors compare in experience and customer satisfaction? Your first priority needs to be to choose which contractor can give you best service now and for years to come. Then let him choose the equipment.

 

The more satisfied customers that a contractor has, the more likely you will be a satisfied customer as well.

 

Have you gotten any references to check? I would specifically ask for references/previous customers who have the same unit each installer is recommending.

 

I was not alarmed by the installers who did not to a manual J calc and quoted the system. They were here for some time ~2 hours and made it very clear they would do a manual J if I wanted to pursue the system further after they quoted the job. They probably would have done it before quoting had I wanted to pursue the system further with them and simply asked. They indicated the manual J could change their estimate but probably would not. They basically spent 3 hours ( drive time ) of there time quoting/specing a system you can only expect so much for free.

References are only so good who gives out bad references? If someone asked me to be a reference and I didnt like the work they did I would probably decline rather then bad mouth them.

 

I have not gotten any references yet but I will. Since the contractor gets to chooses who he gives me as a reference it offers me little assurance. Both contractors think they have the unit sized correctly so by choosing the contractor I am choosing the unit size.

 

Depends on the kind of references. I include clients where things went wrong so potential consumers know how we behave when not everything goes smoothly.

 

This is why you want the most qualified guy making the choice.

 

John, you may not think references matter, but a LACK of references certainly matters. I would look for customers who have lived through a few winters with their systems, and again, the similarity of the system makes a big difference. A contractor who is proposing something he's never or rarely done before is suspect (IMO).

 

You can also ask if there is a operating system they installed you can take a look at. Workmanship says a lot about someone.

 

I am down to two contractors but I have not made a final decision yet but the one contractor came back to me with a less expensive option of installing a Hydron 4 ton Cold Climate Series. This unit is designed for Northern Climates with higher heating loads comes with a lifetime coil and compressor warranty. Does anyone have any experience with this unit?