new geo replacement

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by Peterson, Apr 22, 2013.

  1. Peterson

    Peterson New Member

    So I have decided to go with geo again. My current system was a 3 ton open loop Hydro heat. I have a 33,000 btu gas fireplace that will keep the house at 65 in cold winter days as we had a power outage a few years back, so no heat strip needed. I had dedicated hot water but bought a Geospring hybrid water heater so not sure a desuperheater is a good choice in this new unit. I was curious about the COP ratings. I did get a quote on Climate master and the price is just over $2000 difference for the tranquility 22 to the 30. Cop just over (4 for the 22) and just over( 5 for the 30.) Will I get enough savings to recoup that $2000 or not. I have read and heard Climate master, and Water furnace are top brands. All brands are on the table. I like it to be cheaper to repair after the warranty goes off. I read Bard has cheaper solenoids to operate their furnace instead of expensive computer boards so that is a top choice for me also. KWH got as high as 2700 this winter but Freon was leaking out and had a bad connection on a breaker going bad, also would have contributed to this.
  2. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Nowhere near enough hard data for us to be able to properly advise
  3. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    First thing to start with is a manual J load calc. From that we can size system. A little auxiliary is often cheaper than a larger geo, so with the help of computer modeling we can see if 2 tons costs less to run particularly if you have improved the homes tightness since the old unit was installed.
    The higher COP has a long payback horizon if you are paying anything south of 20 cents/kwh. If you intend to do this yourself you would likely want to purchase the CM service tool with the 22 or 30.
  4. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What happens if you take some time away in the winter and the compressor stops running? A small price to pay for strip heat when needed.

  5. Peterson

    Peterson New Member

    My fireplace is set to warm the basement at night. (where we live at night). Even if all else fails I still have heat.
  6. Peterson

    Peterson New Member

    I have a 28 x 48 ranch with walkout basement w/2x6 walls batt insulation and 18" in the ceiling. Larger Anderson windows to the south and smaller elsewhere. I will look for a load calc and see if I can figure this out for you guys. Thanks
  7. Peterson

    Peterson New Member

    Is a 2 stage the way to go? with 3 ton max What would the smaller compressor rate be? 2 ton? and would it be as efficient as a 2 ton 1 stage?
  8. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    2 stage tends to save lots of water on open loop and associated pumping cost. For $50 you can get a temp license for HVAC Calc. There is also freeware.
  9. VARIABLE 3 Staging Geothermal too:faster sizing

    GT Peterson Retrofit:

    Glad you asked, and you may decide if a little too late:
    2013 Q's for buying-RETROFIT to EXISTING OPEN WELL GT

    GT but even going to come with a DeSuperheater set up for EnergyStar(tm) tax-credit. -still required, I believe.

    Specialty Full Condensing HW wont apply in On-Demand from the GT (just so you know : 100% reclaim in Cooling and Priority has been around working very well since 1981) if you keep existing, perhaps. might want to see at or hydron or WF

    ~~~~~~~Q's) do a quick heat load study, real time:
    When did your normally-operating GT stop keeping up with the desired comfort ALONE with strip heaters off/// or just the strip heaters on? 7degF 5? 3? -5? Can you depend on your answer (tell yourself).

    A gas heating as described could be off over 5000 btuh's for some analysis to coincide with estimating a heat loading at a particular ambient condition, so without a pro- study, I would not go by that alone.

    Do you REM any dark nights at zero outside (zone in the north?) a little windy and GT alone keeping up 24/7?
    3-Ton(HydHt) before Variables, usually has a smaller compressor inside (put in 12 hd-ht, repaired 8, all OEM pieces failures) If it is only a 2.1/2ton compressor inside ~ 32000 to 34000 real heating btuh, clean waterside coil/HX in the unit, then you can stick that KNOWN btuh output point on a graph and get real close to the "study".

    If you FEEL you always depended on too much supplemental heat at 5 above (again like Northern Oh, many just don't want supplemental until below 5 above)-
    ---may already point to a 4 ton variable, about $250 difference after credits, if you qualify! WF:46,000 HYDRO-TEMP (AR) (not h-heat-delta) WF 46,000 BtuH; Hydro-Temp of 1978-(AR): 49,000 Bristol V-Star outputs (that is NOT hyd-heat/delta co you have mentioned)
    a 2.1/2; a 4.0; and a 6 Variable Iq TONS (actual compressor inside) SEE 3rd Party rated EnergyStar(tm):

    Did you see the available Variable 3rd Party rated ahri raw data- EER's 42.1 ?
    and ETL current listings EnergyStar(tm)? EER's 30.8 - 31+ ( Hydro-Temp, AR; WF, respectively)
    at how the blended-HIGH-SPEED (fewer running hours mode) rates.

    ENERGY STAR Most Efficient 2013: Geothermal Heat Pumps : ENERGY STAR
    Programmable and settable to modify to match your air flow/comfort near perfection in LOAD MATCHING.
    You do not really want more than any 4 air-changes (home volumes) per hour through the System but usually not less than 3 for some corner to corner comfort: Air flows are programmable (Hydro-Temp is IRD Wireless to a 4zn board /can run 340 heating to 360 CFM/cooling per ton) [[that is like past rated 3 ton at 325- 345cfm/rated-'ton', to accurately compare, like at Shine GT does discuss]]

    ~ couple of hundred bucks or so more than a 2.1/.2 ton, briefly requiring as little as 2 gpm/ well supply more; etc etc.. (can QUICKLY calculate different options) comparing to maybe no back-up required through 95% design average coldest (ever) winters versus any supplement adders in winter usage, can simply be ascertained.

    There is a paradime shift in design building seeing performance guaranteed in a competitor's contract over those usually picking off a 2.1/2 or 3 or 3.1/2 ton sizing with you... when there has not been one's having some real 3-Staging experience, ~ like any current Variable system.
    Some, have had zone boards built inside.~with already the demand HW controller in it d)

    Varaible or compressors combinations? + 4th stg supplemental?

    CuNi heat exchanger needed (water quality testing)?

    Belimo SS or other water control valve (and will cycle much more with Heat-RECLAIM-HW in Cooling mode)?

    Programmable (settable) air flow range?

    Zone board built inside?

    Does the new compare to old BtuH out put? How so? 10KW Supplemental? 5KW? WHY?

    A relatively new well-water GT experienced contractor can have just a few open loop experiences and be walked through ANY Q that arrives with a qualified technical staff that proficient OEMS have 24/7 even emergency, & free phone helps.

    What does the additional 5yr over first 5 yr warranty really pan out to (OEM Hydro-Temp has replaced whole units 18 months out of warranties, though only 5 yr compressor, 1yr parts). Available in ~5 weeks to date, ask really when delivery is likely, and ask for references to such openly.
    Variables have been tested over 6 years and a few years already commercially on line.

    Ask some replacement cost issues: a 2 speed compressor may fit for the ~ non zone board and consumers best buy!

    go back to Joe's punch list on Q's if just a standard GT.

    Would you get a new reservoir HW tank installed in the GT contract, buffering a DeSuperheater HW generator to the existing?
    How could that affect a short cycle in series (of the Hybrid) or something?
    Oversize if going multistage. more with Variable.
    IS the return air system duct-work adequate? Supply? (more on zoning)

    TEST the WELL, well!
    24 hours is not enough in many cases, as reservoirs can drop a 10 gpm test to finding 3 gpm feeds on a morning of a third day. Few drillers in NE Ohio believed this until it was just evident. 15 gpm dropped to 5 in 3.1/2days!
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
  10. Peterson

    Peterson New Member

    I just ordered my GT furnace today. I have a reliable contractor. I bought a 3T 2 stage climatemaster 22 w/out hw or heat strips. My gas fireplace will work without power so that is even better than a heat strip. The hybrid cost less than $200 a year to operate so saving about $50 a year for a hw system could take a long time to pay off. The difference in efficiencies amounted to $130 a year making the climatemaster 30 for $2000 more, about a 12.5 year pay off. I will use a small circulating pump to keep my 5-6 gpm. I have lived here 35 years and my flowing well still runs 60-80 gpm

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