Michigan New Geo-Flo GPM circulation pump noise

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by d_rek, Dec 5, 2016.

  1. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Doc,
    you are standing so close to the flow center you fail to see the rest of the system, or options available to other people. Get off your high horse and be a little more understanding of other peoples designs and humble in regard to your comments to people seeking help here. Just because a system is not as perfect as the ones you install, they are not wrong, just different.
    Eric
     
  2. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    A good example of Eric's point.

    <<<< hands Eric a safety pin.
     
  3. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Eric,

    what you call a "high horse" I call a quality assurance standard for geo customers, something us installers and designers own their customers. Indeed many people seek help here because their system does not run with the promised efficiency, or does not run well at all.
    In this specific case, a 3 ton dual stage system, which runs usually 85% in 1st stage, was equipped with (2) 26-116 pumps, which use 770 watts, and take down the COP in 1st stage heating to around 3.00 at best, and that for the life of the system, no matter how the rest of the system looks like. There is no benefit to use those pumps in geo system, they cost more to put in than 26-99, (2) are more expensive than one, and they use significantly more energy. Certainly, some people don't know better, but aren't we and many people coming here plagued by issues created by installers who did not know better.

    This was a new built house with a new built system, not a rescue operation, so I have a hard time understanding the "options available to other people". They did not have smaller pumps at the supply house?
    I am "understanding" of other designs, many roads lead to Rome, but there is no excuse here for making a system inherently that much less efficient, for all those years it will operate, when you had the freedom of choice of the equipment.
    I always have been, and always will be, there for people seeking help here.
    I scratch my head why you are defending those installation practices....
     
  4. d_rek

    d_rek Member

    I have yet to contact Bosch regarding my next question but is there any fear that my warranty for the heat pump would be void given that the dual pump are out of spec for their equipment?
     
  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I don't think so, there is no downside to over pumping except higher upfront costs and higher energy usage. There are some reports of coil erosion dues to over pumping, but without knowing your actual GPMs you are pumping, I am not sure how much of a concern that is.
     
  6. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    <<<< Can no longer walk and goes in for a CET/CS Tuesday.

    Doc: A high horse helps you stick your head where it is needed. I hope you learn how arrogant you are before the orange people talk over. Wait you know how their take over works.

    You can not fix all of the systems.

    You can not fix all of the systems.

    You could be polite and empathetic.

    Not.

    Are you orange?
     
  7. d_rek

    d_rek Member

    Here is the reply from the installer regarding pump sizing:

    "No special reason, it is what we always use, and also what the supplier stocks, and I admit it is a little over kill we can disconnect 1 of the pumps and you will be fine but I feel the pump benefits out weigh the electrical consumption."

    For now I guess I will just monitor my electrical use. If my bills seem excessively high then I will circle back with them to talk about either disconnect s pump or downsizing them.
     
    waterpirate likes this.
  8. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

  9. Stevethomas

    Stevethomas New Member

    If you are, don't panic...it's called carotenemia. Just lay off foods rich in beta carotene like carrots and sweet potatoes.
     
  10. d_rek

    d_rek Member

    So if I was being critical of this forum and it's members (i'll let you judge if i am qualified for such criticism) I got a decent amount of conflicting information about my geo system and what should be the 'ideal' install, though to be fair the members offering up their advice seemed very knowledgable about geo. You might want to gather some sort of consensus though before offering advice. I'd hate for someone less cool-headed than myself to take the advice here as gospel and throw it in a contractors face. That's just asking for trouble: "I read what you're doing on an internet forum isn't right! Do it the way the internet says!" contractor: "Ok..."

    The lesson I learned here was...

    ... you get what you pay for with free advice on the internet

    and

    I should have done a lot more homework in regards to my geo system before it was ever installed.

    Thanks for all the input everyone. I'll report in after a month or two of electric bills.
     
    waterpirate likes this.
  11. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    d_rek:

    Ignore Doc. He uses tanning gel. The only voice he hears is his own.
     
  12. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Sure, design by inventory. Did he elaborate what the benefits of the pumps are? And what the benefit of 2 of those pumps are? At the end of the day he made a new geo system inherently less efficient. As he says, for no special reason....except that the supplier stocks them.
     
  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    That is the problem with the internet, there is very little peer review. Don't believe a word you read, just check the facts people give you here yourself. There is no such thing as the ideal system. Your pumping could be done with a inverter driven pump using 40 watts in first stage, no one uses them in dual stage systems (including myself) since they are very expensive. The next best thing is the 26-99, using 230 watts, which is more than sufficient to provide your pumping. You have the pressure drop worksheet from your installer showing you that the 26-99 would be perfect for the loop field and the flow requirements. You have all the information you need to understand everything which was discussed here.
    The numbers don't lie, and they are the facts.
    The difference here between myself and others seems to be that others here had to call me certain things because I revealed those numbers to you, and voiced my opinion that when you have the freedom of new design in a new system with a new house, things which make modern geo systems inherently inefficient (such as (2) 26-116 pumps) should not be used.

    Judge for yourself....
     
  14. d_rek

    d_rek Member

    No argument with the numbers. They are not lying. Since my system is performing well I feel like I am at a bit of a loss as to my next steps with the installer. I DID discuss with him if my electric bills are outrageous on the geo side(DTE meters geo separately here in MI) I would be asking for him
    To help optimize the system since that is what I expected from the beginning. And he was willing to oblige me in that regard. So I'll just see where things stand.

    Ultimately if my bills are less than propane out here i will have considered the system a success. Remains to be seen however...
     
    waterpirate likes this.
  15. Stevethomas

    Stevethomas New Member

    Oompah Loompah's are orange also. If you start looking like one of those then panicking is warranted.
     
  16. d_rek

    d_rek Member

    First electric bill for first month of living (Nov. 28 - Dec. 20) there - $84.

    I'd say it's probably not far off from actual kWh use as my entire house is electric and we were running washer, geo, range/over, fridge, microwave, water heater, well pump, etc. with the only exception being I was waiting on a dryer part to come in but I got that up and running a week after living at the house.

    I expect it to be a little higher for next month. But that's way, WAY cheaper than anything I ever paid living at my other house with LNG on an 80% efficiency furnace. I would pay that alone in electric (usually double) on top of the LNG bill, among other things...
     
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    From your wording I take it that this was an estimated bill.
    No question your geo is still cheaper than propane, and you have a brand new, presumably way more efficient house, built to the newest energy code. So you are comparing a bit apples to oranges.
    But the point is that your own math showed you using $13 on average per months in pumping power, much less in the shoulder season, much more in the peak winter months.
     
  18. d_rek

    d_rek Member

    That's the actual bill. When I said not far off I meant I expect it to be more expensive the next billing cycle now that the dryer is working again.

    But yes, of course, it's apples to oranges. I made some some intentional energy efficiency upgrades to roof and wall insulation, windows, doors, and of course the geo system. Outside of the geo system the windows (Low-e, argon filled, triple-glazed) were the most expensive upgrade. Doors and insulation were peanuts relative to the overall cost. I also requested they properly seal rim joists with caulk and rigid foam, which they did.

    I will say it is amazing to see the energy star rating of todays appliances. A refridg that costs only $30/year to operate? A LED TV for $11? We are starting to live in the future people!

    Still, $13 is $13. I'll wait to see the next bill before making another decision however.
     
    waterpirate likes this.
  19. d_rek

    d_rek Member

    OK... SO... got my 'geo' meter bill today: $140

    The other bill was for my regular residential usage.

    Seems high - higher than I expected anyway - for the geo bill. Add the previous $84 bill and i'm nearing in on $230 for a single month of usage. Granted I am an electric household, but that still seems high to me but I really have no basis for comparison. I know early December up until xmas weekend we had been experiencing temps in the teens and single digits, so I expected a spike in my bill based on that.

    Wondering if I should give it another month to see how my bills level out for the winter months? It has been relatively mild the last week and is expected to remain that way for another 5-6 days.

    I will also do some math to see if I can't estimate what amount of that $140 is coming from circulation pump usage...

    #adulting
     
  20. d_rek

    d_rek Member

    Question:

    I noticed (to me) what seemed like an excessive amount of moisture from the in/out valves for the loop pipes at the heat pump. Enough so that some moisture had travelled down the pipe and had started to drip on the floor. After I inspected the insulating boots they were both very full of moisture - probably a couple of tablespoonfuls - and the valves were wet as well.

    Is this normal? Just condensation? I didn't see any leaks anywhere, or if there were they were so minor as to be almost undetectable.

    Wondering if this is something to worry about? I've just never seen any water like that coming from those areas.

    Thanks,
    d_rek

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