New construction in CT and the quotes are too high

Hi,
We are building a house in CT and it is 3500 sq ft with Anderson windows 400 series windows and R50 in attic and r21 in walls. So far I received two qts,

one for water furnace 7 series/5 series 4ton with the duct work and two zones without well digging 38500/35,500. D super heater is 3000, Air exchanger is extra for 3500, instant water heater is extra 3000, backup water coil is another 2500, and humidifier is 800, well digging is 14 per sq foot for two 350 feet wells. There will be 2000 dollar additional instant rebate on water furnace 7 series model.

Second qt is for climate master 5 ton ttv064, with hot water, duct work, 2 wells 475 feet, and d super heater 58000. This is without instant water heater, humidifier and air exchanger, this guy is telling that the direct vent water heater with do the trick for air issues.

Both the quotes are very high. How should I find out the cost?

Do I need to install the air exchanger, d super water heater, and humidifier?

 

"Both the quotes are very high."

Based on what?

"How should I find out the cost?"

You would have to start with each company's overhead i.e. trucks, fuel, insurance (health/life/liability/comp/auto/property), add in facility costs such as store front, utilities, inventory, phone system, web system etc. get the cost of the well driller and excavator (which will be one of the higher expenses), sales tax, state tax, federal tax, social security contributions, small business taxes, city tax, property taxes, cost of permits and other sundries, find out how many jobs each year these expenses are spread over......oh and cost of equipment which is amongst the smaller contributors (I know a standard electric water heater is $350 at the orange or blue store).

What is noteworthy to me is it seems CM dealer is charging you more for less (perhaps they have more overhead).

It is also noteworth that they quoted for different sizes. What is the actual load of the building and cost/kwh?

Do I need to install the air exchanger, .............and humidifier?

I don't know, depends on tightness of the house.

".....d super water heater,....." If employed with a buffer tank, the desuperheater can save quite a bit of money on the water heating cost. How much would depend on many things.

 

I spoke to the other company they assumed that there will not be insulation between the basement and first floor. They gave me the pricing on the 4 Ton now and it is $3000 less. But in my mind the prices are still very high.

 

Why is the CM installer drilling 2 bores 475' deep for a 5 ton while the WF installer drilling 2 bores 350' deep for a 4 ton??? what are they calculating for soil conditions?
You need to get your loads, and find out why well depths are so far apart too. Your drilling fees can be a major factor in this pricing.

 

WF guy calculated the annual load as follows
Heating Load - 84.7
Cooling - 15.6
Hot Water - 21.0
Hot Water usage - 70 gallons daily

The machine is 7 series NV048 with vertical 1 U-bend 1.25 PE

 

Annual load is somewhat less important for design purposes than design hourly load, but sight unseen, 4 tons sounds reasonable. The 7 series can be expected to do a good job dealing with the substantial difference between peak heating and peak cooling load. You definitely want a buffer tank with the desuper, and the desuper can save a bunch of $ on hot water.
CT, particularly coastal CT, is a pricey place to do business.

If nat gas is available, run the numbers using it for heat and hot water and straight cool air source units for cooling.

You might hold off on air exchanger pending test for need post construction. Provide for its future installation.

I wonder what is a "backup water coil"?

 

Maybe a hydronic coil for aux heat? My best guess?

 

I use water coils all the time.

Trent that is not a photo of your basement.

Mark

 

7 series needs a bit bigger loops than dual stage heat pumps, skip the humidifier, go with the 7 series, you get your money worth, need for air exchanger depends on the tightness of the house,. do you plan to use foam insulation?

 

Amit - did you proceed with this project. I am in CT also and looking for some beginner info.

 

Hi,
Yes I did proceed with this project. It is not complete yet, they are hooking the wells to the unit today and will hook the desuperheater and water heater today.
Thanks
Amit

 

You are shocked by price and the reply you get is to "start with each company's overhead i.e. trucks, fuel, insurance (health/life/liability/comp/auto/property), add in facility costs such as store front, utilities, inventory, phone system, web system etc."

What a pile of rubbish. The idea that a consumer must pay more because you have a company that must pay for their web system and their phone system is BS at its best.

Many replies on here are from GEO installers that love the gravy train they are riding. It is hogwash.

You are correct in your thinking.

For your install you need duct work and attic/cellar install either way. The only really unique aspect of your install is the wells and the connect. That alone should not triple your costs.

Many GEO companies are robbing people blind.

I suggest you price out each part yourself and get the best price. You'll save the "overhead" costs of these GEO companies.

You need:

Duct work - Any A/C/Heat company can price it for you without charging you a premium for being GEO
Heat Pump - Try to buy the unit yourself and find a company that can install it.
Ground source - You need wells. I assume there are many companies that would love the work without whining about their overhead.

Good luck.

 

You are shocked by price and the reply you get is to "start with each company's overhead i.e. trucks, fuel, insurance (health/life/liability/comp/auto/property), add in facility costs such as store front, utilities, inventory, phone system, web system etc."

What a pile of rubbish. The idea that a consumer must pay more because you have a company that must pay for their web system and their phone system is BS at its best.

Weymouth,

You really don't understand how business works do you? It sounds as if you believe a business exists to all but give away product and provide jobs. A business exists to make a... dare I say it... PROFIT!

I don't own the company I work for but I UNDERSTAND if the overhead costs of the company are not covered, I won't have a job for long and our clients won't have a service company that knows thier equipment inside and out. You recommend they buy a unit and find a company to install it. Good luck with that... Who is going to do the warranty work? If we didn't provide the system, we won't work on it without being paid in full.

The answer is very simple, if you believe a company is robbing you blind... GO ELSEWHERE!!!

Bergy

 

Though I have only run a small business once in my life one thing I never did was tell my customer about my overhead and how much I must charge needs to be inflated because of it.

You can tell me all day about lights, gas, phone bills...etc.........the cost of doing business. I get it.

What you cannot tell me is that a GEO system should cost as much as these GEO installers are charging.

They are taking advantage of people.

And yes, I do suggest he go elsewhere. My point about doing each piece separate was if he could not find a company that would not try to rob him blind.

Me thinks he doth protest too much

 

What you cannot tell me is that a GEO system should cost as much as these GEO installers are charging.

Compared to what?? Do you know what the cost of a top of the line Ground Source Heat Pump is? Do you know what the cost of the increased size duct work is? Do you know what the cost of a loop field is? do you know what the cost of the anti-freeze is? Do you know what the OVERHEAD of each contractor is? Of course you don't...

One's advise should be according to one's knowledge... else one sounds foolish!

Bergy

 

What is foolish is for people that want GEO to pay these over-inflated prices.

To the OP, find a company that will explain the cost of each area of the work. Have them justify the exorbitant prices they want to charge.

A new heating/cooling system does not cost 58k for a 3500 sq ft home even with the intricacies of the ground source model.

Am I a GEO expert? No. Have I had one installed by a reputable company that broke down the costs piece by piece justifying my cost? Yes.

His answer was simple:

He said he needs to do duct work either way, conventional or GEO. - Cost is a wash

He needs a good inside unit, GEO or conventional. Yes they are different units, he explained the cost differences. Additional cost for the Heat Pump, but not horribly.

(In my case) He needs to dig trenches for the loop field, there is a cost per day for the labor and machine. Also the cost of the tubing, which he bought at good wholesale prices.

He showed me prices on each part and the total. He made a fine profit and I got the GEO system at a reasonable price.

He did not add the 50% GEO premium for phones , websites and lights ....etc........

 

Just crossing the street in CT is expensive. Somehow the money just disappears from your pants.

 

Weymouth,
I have seen and heard of over priced Geo installs too.
Put typically you have a customer that wants geothermal because it energy eff. And also the environmental aspect too.
Generally people who decide to peruse geothermal want the the most efficient system possible, multiple zones, multi stage compressors, desuperheaters with new water heaters, emergency heat installed ( which usually requires a upgraded electric service), and a qualified loop installer to do the ground work too.
Then when they have all that decided they want to have someone who is knowledgable, qualified, and certified to perform the work too.
Any hvac guy can bend sheet metal, your correct. But when you start out sourcing your labor between the loop installer, sheet metal duct guy, Heat pump installer, electrician, and salesman who sold you the Geo HP.... Let's imagine all the finger pointing if/when a issue arises and you need warranty or any service work!
I am all for DIYing things, but you must also be ready for the set backs that sometimes come along with DIY projects.

 

All y'all need to quit feeding Widemouth...it just make it even wider!

 

All y'all need to quit feeding Widemouth...it just make it even wider!

Just what I've come to expect on this forum.

Agree with the GEO installers or face their wrath.