I know my 2hp well pump gpm/psi is too much for the 4 ton GSHP arriving next week. I've read about the potential energy expense of CSVs vs. upfront expenses of variable flow pumps. My well pump was replaced only two years ago so I'm loathe to replace it but the Franklin Monodrive XT seems like a great solution to this all too common problem. It would appear this device will convert my three wire pump to variable flow by changing the frequency. I have two questions: 1) What will this do for efficiency? Information elsewhere suggests variable flow can actually use more electricity though this may be related to CSV marketing... But even Franklin's own material doesn't say much about saving energy, it's about constant water pressure with varying use. 2) How reliable is the Franklin unit? Any experience out there? It wouldn't make sense to spend $600 on this controller if it is short lived or particularly sensitive the vagaries of line power... Thanks for your input.
Franklin electrtic makes very robust products that are well tested before they are sold to the public. 1. the xt drive will last a long time barring a lightning strike to your house Although effeciency is allways a concern, it is secondary in this application and conditions varry so wildly it is why Franklin skims over the details. It solves an existing problem you have, to much pump at to high a pressure used for other things as well as the heatpump. Without correct sizing or use of a variable speed drive you will have to make concessions. Paul will rob Peter ect. 2. It will solve your problem, prolly more reliably than your current set-up, prolly more effecient. too many variables to measure or profer a prediction up front. Eric
I think this is the best solution to my immediate problem and one that will still be of value even if I go in another direction later, like a ground loop or some separate water supply system. The best price I've seen so far is less than $600, that's not much considering the scope of the alternative solutions! I'm hoping it will work with all three wire single phase pumps, I'll talk to my well guy this week...
Be sure and let us know how much it increases the electric bill. Cause I think the guy they banned is right.
In what regard was he right and on which point was he wrong? It was his failure to admit nothing is perfect that got him in trouble. There are pro's and con's to everything, he failed to conceed the con's. Eric
To me it looks as the CSV vs. variable-flow debate will never be settled as it depends on individual applications and there will always be some tradeoff somewhere. In my case, if I had a smaller well-pump or a larger GSHP a CSV device might make sense. If I were replacing my well-pump then a complete variable speed system might be the way to go. For that matter, if I were closer to my ponds a pond loop would make the most sense! I'm planning on doing this DIY install as rationally as possible, first as a conventional open loop to see just how much the well will cycle and what amps it draws, then some experimenting with a valve/restriction between the wellhead and controls to see how many amps it takes to produce 8-10gpm with continuous running and then make the decision between CSV and the variable speed controller. If the restricted amperage is close to the same I might just go with a CSV but I don't want to ignite that debate in this thread. If the restricted amperage is quite a bit higher then I'll go with the variable speed controller and will measure it's energy usage as well, maybe others can gain some insight from my experiences. If then that is significantly more expensive at 8-10gpm then I might consider alternatives: a tank system (complicated), raw pond water through a separate heat exchanger or shallow well next to the ponds (600'+ pipe, expensive) or just bite the bullet and install a ground loop. Pipe fusing is the main impediment to ground loops; no one wants to just fuse pipe, they want to install a ground loop with their cute little trencher while explaining how coooomplicated it all is, the only participation from me being writing a fat check. This is hard to swallow when you have a JD 200CLC excavator on site!
All of your water questions and the pro's vs. cons are choices nothing more. In regard to loops and fusion, you can eliminate fusion by using pipe runs in standard lengths and running the tails into a mechanical space where other joints besides fusion are perfectly acceptable. Eric
abh3, Find a loop installer that will let you dig the trenches. I had our guy dig the trenches, installer had his guy do the pipe fusing. ChrisJ
That's good to have confirmed, I'd suspected that was an option. I've come to the opinion that some installers try to create the impression that geothermal is so technically demanding and the downside so extreme that it actually discourages lay-people from making the change. For instance, I've been told that mechanical joints will always fail and such failures always result in catastrophic failure of the heat pump. From my perspective this is pure crap, there are many mechanical joints that work with temperature ranges, pressures and chemical properties far more demanding than those in a geo system and a leak may be just something to monitor and top up depending on severity. I've also been told that ground loops don't work as advertised (check for brother-in-law with a well drilling company), geo rarely works as advertised (local power company) and modern conventional heat pumps are actually MORE efficient than GSHPs (local Carrier dealer), it goes on and on...
Mechanical joints and closed loop geo fit together perfectly if you do not bury them, which makes service or observation problematic. option one is mechanical space, option two is some sort of valve box or vault outside. The rest of what you assume is true. Most electric providors in the trest of the country offer incentives to go geo as it reduces load and strain on the grid. Eric
Calling something a perpetual motion machine was a highlight of it's con's. Care to answer my original querry? Eric
Interesting that in the few days you have been with us, you are only interested in one topic and familiar with "the guy who was banned". The "guy who was banned" was on the fringe of involvement in geo at all and offered no contribution to anything other than CSV conversations. You resemble "him". OP: " I've been told that mechanical joints will always fail and such failures always result in catastrophic failure of the heat pump." Many installers employ mechanical joints (at least on the hose kits) and they are less reliable. That is why we don't employ them in concealed locations. Other than that they work fine. J.
I don’t have a geo system. I was researching this subject for an irrigation system. As somebody else said, this is the only place I have read anything negative about a CSV, so I read everything several times. I ended up calling “the guy who was banned”. I won’t be bothering anyone here again, and I am not buying a VFD. Thanks
David, I'm not a well guy. Most geos (here) are closed loop anymore (Dont know a CSV from a VFD or a BFD). If you end up with a CSV, I wish you would revisit us with your results. Good or bad I'd be interested. I'm not threatened by CSVs, just put off by the previous cheerleader and not convinced by the assertions (math). You do have to confess you picked an odd place to research this product for irrigation. J
I would add that this is one forum with such a broad representation of proffesionals that nothing gets through un-filtered. When you have home owners, engineers, hvac, well, and math hobbyists the smoke gets blown away and mirrors reflect the truth regardless of the subject matter. Eric
OK, you asked for my results, good or bad. But your not going to like it, because you guys were wrong. I have had my CSV for three months now and I love it. I will never have another well without one. I can see why you would think it is too good to be true, but it is. My two horse pump goes from 13 amp to 7, which cuts the electric use almost in half. My neighbor also put one in this week after replacing his second Franklin Speed Box. The CSV company is local to me and I have been to their office. I never knew what they did until recently but they have been here 20 years and are a respected company in this area. The owner doesn’t think much of you guys. I won’t repeat what he said. You guys are so certain that you are filtering out good stuff. The only certain mind is a closed mind. My CSV works as advertised, it is not smoke and mirrors.
Thanx for stopping back with your data. 3 months of operation is hardly the long term data it will take to convince me of anything. I am sorry he feels such animosity toward anyone, and would choose to say things you will not repeat, but hey it is just the internet. Stop back again after more time has passed. Eric
You mentioned "you guys" repeatedly, did my last post above sound closed minded? Your tone is similar to the last champion of the product and off putting. You will convince folks or not, but you are definately casting suspicion on your own kudos. j
