Manufactured loop header vs. reverse return

Discussion in 'Geothermal Loops' started by Calladrilling, Dec 9, 2011.

  1. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Has anybody ever used or seen one used?

    What are you thoughts, and/or concerns?


    Seems like it would work, and saves alot of fusion joints too.

    Product Configurations
     
  2. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Seen one

    All 3/4". We rarely use 3/4" for anything.

    Your fusion tool also needs to be able to heat off its ends in order to work with this fitting.

    Otherwise, I like the idea.
     
  3. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I looked at those when they first advertised like a year ago. It is a novel idea but the price I was quoted was to high for it to be implemented by us. The cost of the fittings to shop assymble manifolds for jobs is negligible, and I can make a 6-8 loop header in about 30 minutes, so labor also gets the negligible comment.

    If the discussion is that or reverse return, I would say close header is your answer. The only time we do RR is if it is engineered that way, or I can not meet IGSHPA's reccomendation for the plus or minus 10% on total loop length for balancing.

    We have modified our thinking and pricing over time due to our involvement with larger homes and light commercial. Instead of reaping the benefit of added efficency through useing one large loop field for multiple units we use multiple circ pumps serving smaller mini fields that are unit specific. That allows for building wide system redundancy, as well as making the use of close headers easyer to implement.

    Hope this helps
    Eric

    Where is your primary operating area?
    Rock or mud or hdd?
     
  4. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    we are out of NJ.
    We do mud rotary and cover all of Southern New Jersey.
    I do reverse return now, but seen this header and thought it would be a great idea if they actually work in the real world.

    The price i got was not too bad , and less than half the joints that had to be made too.

    approx. $40/each for a 6 loop manifold. I would be willing to try it if somebody else had some more input on them.
     
  5. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree with Eric, the cost is more than I want to pay.
     
  6. smflyer

    smflyer New Member

    What is the ballpark price?
     
  7. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes my only concerns are the heaters have to be side mounted since the tight area between the ports on the manifold. We usually do 1" loops too, and right now i only see 3/4" loops.

    The prices are fair and i would be willing to spend it on a prefab manifold.
    pipefuser.com pricing:
    3 zone $28
    4 zone $30
    5 zone $35
    6 zone $38

    Does anybody see anything that could cause performance problems over reverse return?
     
  8. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    No, it will work fine for flow.
     
  9. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Hi and welcome,
    I am your neihbor acrossed the delaware bay. We do the entire penninsula and get into Jearsey occasionaly. I would love to have your contact info as I have been asked to bid a job in LBI complete with conductivity testing and they are not going to like my number based on cost per foot for the trucks on the ferry and lunch and beer everyday at the ugly mug or simmilar lol.
    If you are interested I would be glad to send you the engineers:(, yea I know I said a bad word for residential, contact info.
    Eric
     
  10. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yeah the word Engineer generally means the price is gonna go up for the homeowner.LOL
     
  11. ACES-Energy

    ACES-Energy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    tool

    + probably $300-$600 for the tool!

    We build all headers on the job as we never know what we might run into...ie- trench/bore hole spacing, etc..
     
  12. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    yeah that heater tool is $409.00 on a local website.

    But luckily for us the supplier says my current tool will work with this manifold. I think I'm gonna try it for a future job.

    I'll post the outcome when I do use it. No geothermal planned right now though. My next geo is a single bore for a small house.. normally id be happy, but I'm kinda disappointed now because i wanna try it. LOL
     
  13. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I have been

    saying here for years that a loop field is just a backwards radiant floor. The issue with a manifold, back filled is getting to the ball valves. I put them in vaults, (see Cleffie Indronics Number 9), I shared this idea with their reps about seven years ago.

    Look at their stuff no heat required.

    Mark
     
  14. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Let's say for instance I drill 5 bores @ 290' each. And trench them all to a central location. . Then I install a geosolar pre-manufactured header and trench the feed and supply lines in the building. What are my concerns?
    We have only installed Reverse return on all of our geo jobs in the past, just trying to gain as much knowledge as possible before bidding on a job and installing this header or a close shop made header.
     
  15. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We do this all the time, just with a close header that we build.
     
  16. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If I was to try a close shop built header what would be the best way to make it.
    Let's say 3 loop field for one job site with 1" loops.
    And a different job I'm working on it a 5 loop field with 1" loops.

    What would be the correct manifold sizing and length for each?
     
  17. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Header to 1-1/4" after last loop

    But assuming:
    - usual antifreeze range
    - 3gpm per loop
    - SDR11

    Because 8gpm is about the max you want to put through 1" (ASHRAE).

    But, nobody copy this without thought!

    It is some of the basics one needs to know in sizing these things.
     
  18. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    It is all about

    Luck

    Science

    SWAG

    Local Knowledge

    and LUCK.

    You could engineer it, but that takes math and luck, because the ground is not the same over the planet.

    Manifolds are pure science. They will move XXX of BTUH though XXX pipe with the correct pump for the job. The trick is to know how how to do the math and hope that your luck will make enough heat transfer.

    I have used manifold from BandDmanufatcturing with success, but I have them in crocks for availability to compression fittings.

    Good luck,

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  19. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    for 3- 1" loops...1.25 x1 x 1 tee followed by a 1x1x1 tee.

    for 5 - 1" loops 2x2x1 tee + 2x1.25x1 tee+1.25x 1x1 tee+1x1x1 tee

    fuse the tees together with about 6" of pipe between tees
     
  20. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    yeah Im not looking to engineer, or Over engineer things for that manner. Just looking for ideas of length of header, size of piping, and other things that may or not work when building it.
     

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