Pennsylvania Loop Piping Leak

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Inspector7, Sep 14, 2016.

  1. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You seem to have a 4ton given the nomenclature. I believe the hydro heats are water furnace made, I just don't have the pressure drop tables. Do you have your installation manual and could you post the page with the pressure drop here?

    That way we could figure out the flow you are having. You might be not over-pumping giving that older machines used to have a higher pressure drop.
     
  2. arkie6

    arkie6 Active Member Forum Leader

    If it is for sure leaking on the glued side of the adapter fitting here is a way to fix it in-place without cutting the existing pipe:

    1) Depressurize system so that leak stops or is at least minimized.
    2) Get a PVC coupling of the same size as your pipe (looks like 1" in the photos?). Also get a stainless worm drive hose clamp that will fit over the PVC coupling.
    3) Using a miter saw, slice off a piece of the coupling approximately the same thickness as the gap between the PVC threaded adapter and the adjacent PVC Tee.
    4) Using a saw with a thin kerf such as a coping saw or hacksaw or even a utility razor knife, cut the PVC coupling slice in half crosswise so that you end up with two half rings of PVC.
    5) Test fit the PVC split rings to verify they will fit in the gap between the PVC threaded adapter and the PVC Tee. If necessary, sand or file to fit.
    6) Thoroughly apply PVC primer to the gap between the adapter and tee.
    7) Thoroughly apply PVC glue to the gap between the adapter and tee.
    8) Insert the PVC slip rings in the gap between the adapter and tee.
    9) Install the worm drive hose clamp over the PVC slip rings and tighten - It would be a good idea to have the hose clamp loosely installed over the PVC adapter prior to applying primer and glue so that it can be tightened over the PVC split rings before the glue sets up.
    10) Allow the PVC pipe glue to set up and dry completely (at least 1 hour) before re-pressurizing the pipe and checking for leaks.

    If you don't feel like make your own PVC repair rings, you can also buy them, but they may not fit in your case depending on how much room you have between the fittings.

    http://www.kinginnovation.com/products/83/leak-b-gone

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leak-B-Gone-3-4-in-PVC-Repair-Rings-10-Pack-45015/205346961
     
  3. Inspector7

    Inspector7 New Member

    The installation manual refers me to the Product Specification Sheet for pressure drop values, I have been searching online for a few days for pressure drop values, because they are not on the Product specification sheet that I have. (Please see attached photo). Any ideas where to look and I will gladly see what I can come up with.......
     

    Attached Files:

  4. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The are usually in the installation manual or the specification manual.
     
  5. Inspector7

    Inspector7 New Member

    Spent some hours trying to find pressure drop tables. Sent a few emails trying to come up with something. Will see if that turns up anything. Here is something also from Hydro Heat installation manual. Will attach anything that is sent from emails inquiries. image.jpeg
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  6. Inspector7

    Inspector7 New Member

    HydroDelta Hydro Heat legacy owner provided me with the following:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  7. arkie6

    arkie6 Active Member Forum Leader

    Which is higher? Supply or return? 1 ft-hd = .43 psi. You are right at 2 ft-hd difference or 0.86 psi. But is this adding to or subtracting from your measured DP of 6.5 psi? Regardless, from the table you posted, it looks like you are at approximately 10 to 12 gpm for a 4 ton unit which is in the correct range of flow rates. How cold does your Entering Water Temperature (EWT) get in the winter? How hot does your EWT get in the peak of summer?
     
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yep, you should not get lower in the flow. The older Hydro Heat HPs seem to have a much high pressure drop. Unfortunately your system might need the (2) circulation pumps. I had hoped that you might be able to get by with one pump.
     
  9. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What progress on the leak?
     
  10. Inspector7

    Inspector7 New Member

    Still leaking from a glued fitting end.

    I have decided that for the long term benefit of the system, I am going to replace all interior piping and valves and change to a non-pressurized system. (Doing a "band-aid" fix on just the current leak would just be a stop gap until the next leak occurs.)

    The current piping has 1" hdpe coming through the wall to a 1" pvc sch. 40 header, with 1" piping to the heat pump. Should I up size the header to 1.25" or 1.5" to the flow center?

    Sorry, can't answer questions on EWT, intend to monitor that this winter though.
     
  11. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    1.25" would be good, 1.5" would not add very much with about 12 gpm of flow.

    Any idea how your outside loop measures up? Existing 1" pipe also explains the 10-12 gpm flow rate despite (2) pumps.
     
  12. Inspector7

    Inspector7 New Member

    Thanks Doc, outside loop.... 1" hdpe, 330' manifold to manifold. (Installed by well driller)
     
  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yep, the 330' explains the high pressure drop in the system, unfortunately your need (2) 26-99 pumps. There are more efficient solutions out there, but in your case the payback would be very long....
     
    Inspector7 likes this.
  14. arkie6

    arkie6 Active Member Forum Leader

    Based on the photos you posted earlier, your PVC pipe header looks to be one size larger (+1/4") than the HDPE pipe penetrating the block wall. Maybe its the camera angle, but the PVC pipe looks to be about the same size as the HDPE socket fusion fitting which fits over the outside of the HDPE pipe. See post #9, middle picture, far right pipe penetration - you can clearly see the HDPE pipe through the wall has a much smaller OD than the socket fusion fitting OD or the PVC pipe OD. Also, I see a metal threaded adapter on every pipe penetration that increases the pipe size by 1/4". I was assuming this was a 3/4" x 1" threaded adapter and was assuming the loop pipe was 3/4" pipe, which has on OD of 1.05". If your loop pipe is actually 1" HDPE (OD = 1.315"), then your PVC header pipe looks to be 1.25" PVC (OD = 1.660").
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  15. Inspector7

    Inspector7 New Member

    Arkie, thanks for your help, but I do not make assumptions, all pipes have size clearly denoted on the sides.
     
  16. arkie6

    arkie6 Active Member Forum Leader

    Which pipe size markings are you referring to? On the PVC pipe or the HDPE pipe fittings?
     
  17. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    re doing the inside piping and a switch to a non pressurized system will solve a lot of your issues in one move, and be cost effective if you can order a non pressurized flow center without the pumps installed and simply install the ones you have in the system now. If you can not, you will have two spare pumps on hand,:)
    Eric
     
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  18. arkie6

    arkie6 Active Member Forum Leader

    If you intend to replace the inside PVC piping header, what do you intend to replace it with? Will this be DIY?
     
  19. arkie6

    arkie6 Active Member Forum Leader

    Replacing all of the pipe, fittings, and maybe pumps seems like a lot of expense and trouble with little if any gain other than fixing one leaking fitting. Only one leak in 13 years? The PVC glued joint transitions don't degrade with age, so it is unlikely you will have additional leaks if you maintain your system pressure where it currently is. If you periodically pump it up to full domestic water supply pressure (50-60 psi ?), you may challenge the fittings, but if you limit peak pressure to <30 psig, there shouldn't be any new leaks. Fixing the existing leak is simple and virtually no cost. Installing a new non-pressurized flow center and header piping will likely cost in the ballpark of $1K. The benefit vs. cost just don't seem to be there. Based on the age of your unit and the fact that it is R22, I would consider replacement of the inside loop piping and pumps when it comes time to replace the unit.
     
  20. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    So let me get this straight. You have 6 loops out there, how long is each loop. How long is the pipe from the inside header to the heat pump? All 1" right now, correct?
     

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