Leak in closed loop system

First time user. I have a water furnace system with a leak somewhere in the system. I do see a wet spot on the concrete floor under the wall mounted flow center. I took the rubber plug off the side of it and there is what I believe to be the three way valve with the "T" direction indicator on the end of it. That is the source of the wet spot on the floor. The spot on the floor is about the size of a large grapefruit. It is always damp even considering the absorption of the concrete and evaporation. Around the stem inside the hole where the plug goes there is always standing water. Is it normal for this to be wet like this? I used a needle for pumping up basketballs, fitted it to a brass tee with a 100 psi. gauge, to a brass ball shut off valve, to a one gallon hand held sprayer with a 45 psi. rating. With the system running I insert the needle into the lower P/T port (after purging the line of air) and the pressure will drop from 38/40 psi. to 15+ psi. in 2 or 3 days. Could that amount of leakage cause that much difference. If so what is the pecking order to repair/replace the three way valve? I can tell the installer used Teflon tape around the pipe plug flush port but there is an occasional drip from it. The furnace is a water furnace Envision. It is a closed loop under our pond. Coils are approximately 15 ft. deep. I "think" it is a 75,000 btu????? Getting ready to leave for an anniversary party so I can't check out real time numbers, but will when we get back. We also have a smaller water furnace for the upper floor that hardly ever gets turned on but is still tied into the same loop. Have to run. Will be back on tonight or in morning. Thanks

 

Hello and welcome.

Leaks are not good, but the heat pump will shut itself down if you run out of water. An issue could be loss of antifreeze.

Mark

 

Is your leak persistent in summer, or is it just winter and possibly a result of condensation on the colder pipes? Is it a newer system? Call the installer back and have him resolve it. If out of warranty or unable to get back with installer, I have had success with loop conditioner to eliminate an undetectable leak. Added one bottle to the system and pumped it in/up to pressure with garden sprayer, let it circulate for 2 days. No leaks in 8 months. Pressure holding solid. If you know the leak source, fix the plumbing.

http://www.geothermalsupply.com/catalog.cgi?id=14.267

 

I had a small leak ie 1 gallon per year. It was an undetectable elbow that leaked. I replaced it and I have had no issues. If I were you I would top the system off until heating season is over. To add what Mark said please pay attention to the antifreeze levels.

 

A o-ring brought down the shuttle, and 1 in about 20 of our flow centers exibit a weep at the 3 way valve location you mentioned. Monitor closely and change in the spring is sound advice.
Eric

 

Thank you all for your responses to my request for help with my system leak. Our in-ground closed loop system was put in by one installer in 2000, the furnaces and ductwork by another company the same year. The smaller furnace is from the original installation. The larger furnace (main) was a replacement in 2009. Both furnaces connect to the same loop. Can anyone tell me how much volume it can/would have to leak to make the line pressure drop from 38 psi to 10-15 psi in a couple days. I bought two 8 oz bottles of Geo Loop conditioner off the internet. Will I have to take fluid from the line to put the two bottles in? Exactly how is the process done? How do I find out if the system incorporates glycol or methanol anti-freeze? How do I know how much anti-freeze I need to replace in the system. When I use my needle/gauge/water hose to add fluid to the system and the air gauge goes to 40 psi in approximately a minute, is that all I have to do. It doesn't seem like that is much fluid intake but then I am a complete amateur at understanding all this. I will keep monitoring the loop pressure as advised by you and repair whatever is needed in the spring also. I deeply appreciate all your advice. I am going to keep monitoring this site for any more postings. It is a great site to learn from. Thank you very much again all of you. Beany

 

I have glycol system. I purchased a cheap refractometer off ebay to measure concentration and freeze protection.

Not sure a precise way to tell methanol vs. glycol. Methanol may smell slightly alcohol like, a few drops will likely evaporate and leave no residue. Glycol will leave some slime/residue. Glycol will smell/taste sweet (i am not encouraging a taste test, but I have done so to try and differentiate drips of condensation from drips of antifreeze with success only drips mind you. I know propylene glycol is food grade, but the additives are the bugger). My glycol does have a greenish hue, but not sure if there is any standard color.

Fool proof way to test freeze protection is to put a cup in the freezer with good thermometer. Check and stir occasionally. Once it starts to form ice/slushy consitency, and you have stirred and maintained a combination of ice/liquid, that is the freeze protection temperature.

A cup of fluid added/removed from my system will quickly change pressure by 5-10 psi.

For my loop conditioner, I added the bottle via a pump sprayer with various attachments. See post with photos.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/refractometer-glycol

The loop conditioner clearly indicates to not have any strainers in the system (I removed mine) and to pump up pressure and let it circulate for a specified time. I drained about a gallon of fluid from my loop and mixed it in a 2 gallon pump sprayer with the loop conditioner and pumped it back in. I then wired my pumps to run continuously for a couple days at an increased pressure.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/refractometer-glycol

 

Trent is the boss with loop conditioner and pump up filling systems.

I know the stuff we put in his system was green. We got it locally, do to weight driving from Cleveland to MD. I normally used blue stuff made in Cleveland.

The additives are bio-inhibitors st stop growth of glycerol growing bacteria. If you drink a bunch of this stuff Greek yogurt should fix you up.

Mark

 

OK guys: Haven't abandoned the site, just been busy with lots of snow and cold weather. Haven't heard back from installer of new furnace about glycol or methanol in loop line. Afraid to add any kind of refrigerant until I know what is in there already because I don't know about compatability. Have been topping it off with just plain water but am also afraid of doing this too much because of diluting the line too much. Also hesitant to add geo loop conditioner to line because of other threads stating not to do so with strainer in system and I do not know if I have one and if I do where it is located and what I have to do to remove it. Just when I thought I was beginning to understand the system a little bit I found out I "am dumber than a 5th grader"!!!!! I am in the process of locating a hydrometer ...AND...a refractometer because I don't know for sure which one I need OR if I will need both before I am through. Supposed to be approximately -12 to -15 below here starting next Monday so I need to start winterizing buildings/equipment etc.. Thanks again to all of you and have a healthy and rewarding 2014.

 

Beany:

It is 11 here now. I am looking for my winter gear so I can dig out from yesterdays 8" of snow and 40 MPH winds. In my youth I liked winter and raced a team of sled dogs.

A quick test is to taste a small drop. Sweet is glycol.

The type and amount of refrigerant will be listed on the manufacture's name plate.

The most common strainer is called a "wye" strainer. Google it for a picture. It will be covered in insulation so you may need to go exploring to find it.

They make test strips that change color to show antifreeze protection and PH levels in the loop fluid. If you can not find them let me know I have a few bottles of them in the truck, if I get it dug out of the snow.

I would second thoughts by Trent and Eric as to volume of the leak and what to do about the flow center. Use care if you go to re-pack the three way valve so you do not need to re-purge the loop field.

I have not been to Indiana in a while, but could be up for a trip during ground hog hunting season.

Mark

 

Mark: It is 8:30 here and -6 degrees. Cleared about 8" of snow off the driveway yesterday (with Bobcat) took approximately 3 hours. Dad always told me older I got the more I would hate cold and snow. He was right. Would not want to live in Fla., or Az. year round though. I love the spring and fall. My wife's cousin has sled dogs. She used to raise them for the Iditarod (sp) race. I am going to google the "wye" strainer and also research getting test strips. Then I have to get out to the pole barn and replenish the kerosene in my salamander heater to keep the drain line in my furnace from freezing up. H A T E I T........You ever get to Indiana I live outside Fremont. Michigan state line is our property line and one mile to Ohio....very N.E. corner. Thanks Mark. Stay warm and safe.

 

"You ever get to Indiana I live outside Fremont. Michigan state line is our property line and one mile to Ohio....very N.E. corner. Thanks Mark. Stay warm and safe."
Stayed there when our little band was employed by an establishment along Lake James.......sure miss that gig......you Hoosiers are a lot of fun! LOL

 

Joe ? I know Lake James well. Back in 1956 I was a junior in high school and my parents had a cottage on lake George which was approx. 15 minute drive from lake James. During the summer months I worked at Harrington's boat livery on Lake James. It was on the channel between Lake James and Jimmerson lake. Perhaps the place where you had your "gig" was......Bledsoe's Beach???? It used to be the place to go to for weekend partying before it burned down years ago. What state do you live in now?

 

Jimmys on james just a few yrs back. Im in mid MI

 

Haven't got a hydrometer or refractometer or test strips yet.....tried a taste test on a "drop" of liquid I got out of the P/T port. Couldn't detect a taste. Let a little bit drip on the floor from the port to see if when it dried if it left a "slimey" residue or evaporated. Just dried up, I think. The metal tag on the Water furnace Envision says use only R410A refrigerant. That unit was installed as a "replacement" for the original unit that was installed in 2001. I have called the installer that put the new unit in and left message with secretary to have a technician call me but to no avail. They are a different installer from the one in 2001. Would/could the more recent installer have put R410A refrigerant in the loop no matter what may have been in it before? To unhook the old system and install the new unit would they have lost just a matter of a quart - gallon - gallons of fluid or would they have had to evacuate the whole loop line and refill it? I have a gallon of Walmart windshield washer fluid (-25 methanol) I have a gallon of automotive propylene glycol, I have a gallon of ethylene glycol automotive antifreeze and as soon as I locate and remove the strainer (if I have one) I have the two 8 oz. geo. loop bottles. Now all I need is to know what I need to use or not use. Pulled up a Water furnace website that said that starting 2001 they used carbon dioxide (R744) refrigerant....could that be what was put in my closed loop in 2001????????Then it said they later started using Hydrochloroflurocarbon (HCFC) R-22 .....could that be??????????? now they say use only R410A.....??????????????? another Water furnace Envision website says use 4.1 for 15% water/methanol or Environol???????????? I am so confused now that I don't know if tomorrow is yesterday or next week is already past.........

 

You are confused. The refrigerant does not go in the ground loop. The R410A is in the compressor loop. What you are dealing with is the antifreeze and the ground loop.

 

You are confusing the "refrigerant loop" and the "loop field". The refrigerant loop is the closed circuit INSIDE the heat pump and requires R410-A.
The loop field is the pipes in the ground. They will have a Methanol, or Glycol, mixture in it. As long as the unit is running OK,
there is no need to get real worked up about this. If your loop pressure remains above 3 PSI your circulators will operate properly.
The amount of water you are adding to repressurize the loop, compared to the loop volume, is not much. Verify what's in the loop and go from there.

Bergy

 

MR. DEAN & BERGY: AMEN TO THAT ! ! ! I am soooooo happy to get that straightened out. I think I have wasted enough of everyones time and patience with my rambling on to try to decipher and understand the responses I've gotten. I'll just have to go it alone now and hope for the best. I thought I needed either methanol or glycol but then I tried to "act smart" and do some website research and got all discombobulated with the refrigerant thing. Oh well. Thanks to all of you.

 

Can you contact the loop contractor for information about the make-up of the anti-freeze?