New York Is this quote reasonable? $38k for 3ton WF

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by Douglas Nathe, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. Douglas Nathe

    Douglas Nathe New Member

    Hi everyone.
    I just received my first quote for a new system and I feel it is a bit higher that it should be.

    Installer quoted:
    $38,400(Before rebates)
    System is a 3Ton 5 Series Water Furnace
    10kw Aux heat
    Communicating Stat
    1 Vertical 450ft well.

    My first question is why they quoted a vertical system. Our lot is 2 acres in a rural area, plenty of room for a horizontal system. Would it not be cheaper to use a horizontal system?

    House details:
    Upstate NY
    2000sqft Colonial home.
    26 years old
    Has a forced air LPG furnace
    Unfinished/unheated basement.

    Thanks for your inputs.
     
  2. flywilson02

    flywilson02 New Member

    I recently committed to a quote for a 4 ton 7 series WaterFurnace, with an intellizone 3 zone system, 2 300 foot vertical wells, and some additional duct work to add 2 additional vents in a garage conversion for $37,500. I'm in Tennessee so I'm sure its not an apples to apples comparison.
     
  3. Douglas Nathe

    Douglas Nathe New Member

    Thanks flywilson02. Your reference puts this in pretty good perspective. They also quoted me an extra $3500 for the Intellizone system and $2000 more to go to a 7 series. To make my quote more similar to yours it would be $43,900 and your install was still bigger project than my estimate.

    I got a quick quote from another installer and they provided a rough estimate of $20k.
     
  4. moey

    moey Member

    Call other installers and have one give you a quote for a horizontal system. My experience was it was much cheaper. Others on here have said the same. Some installers dont do them or claim they wont work in your climate they do though. Its colder where I live in Maine and it works excellent. The estimate sounds a little high to me but not completely unreasonable.
     
  5. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Where are you located in NYS?

    Check out https://www.groundupgeo.org if you are in Western New York.

    Go with the 7 series, it is well worth it.

    Usually horizontal systems are cheaper, but it depends on your ground conditions.
     
  6. Jamie V.

    Jamie V. New Member

    Three years ago I had a 3 ton series 7 installed for $34,000 in Maryland before rrbates:
    • Programmable thermostat
    • Two 450' vertical wells
    • 10kW Aux heater (has never turned on except for PM)
    • Desuperheater
    • Whole house humidifier
    • Aprilaire filter
    I agree with the others... Go with the Series 7.
     
  7. nc73

    nc73 Member

    Sigh. All of you got ripped off. Price gouging but who can blame the contractors. Educate yourself and stop getting ripped off. DIY if you have to, it's not that hard. I am DIYing my system, and I'm even getting a pond in the deal for 11k, before tax credits. I could've done horizontal for 8k, but why when for a bit more I get a pond. 15k should be the max for a pro, up to 4 tons.
     
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Hmmm..the systems we are putting in we spend more than $15K on material at cost....excluding labor and overhead. Not sure what you are putting in.
     
  9. Jason Artis

    Jason Artis New Member

    It seems like in the past year the price for geothermal has skyrocketed. $38,400 for such a small system seems close to quotes I have gotten. I have received two quotes for my house, Two story 1300 square feet with R-30 spray foam encapsulated roof, i'm just north of Boston so vertical is my only option.
    One contractor quoted me
    $34900 for just the 1 vertical well(250') he uses a twister from agreenability so he doesn't have to go down so far. a single 2-ton hyrdon module heat pump, 1 duct run from first to second floor including wiring, disposal of old steam system,which I want to sell the radiators myself.
    If I wanted the extras that I had asked for. On demand water heat, 30 gallon tank with desuperheater, 10kw heatpack, which I am pretty sure is necessary, and an ERV the price comes to $50,900

    second quote
    was a complete system, he didn't say how man wells, i imagine 2 vertical wells because he quoted me 2x 2-ton hydron(1-basement,1-attic) modules to avoid running duct work from first to second floor and he didn't think 2-ton was enough along with the hot water on demand with desuperheater and ERV and filtration system: $69,998

    both quotes are before rebates where in mass currently there are two departments that give rebates on top of the Fed 30%, MassCEC he told me was about $8000 and MassDoer was about $4000.

    I feel like they are pulling a document out of their ass that says, "sucker please sign here"

    My question is about the manual J, they quote these systems before they do the manual J. Once they perform the manual J, how do you know they did it correctly? I attempted to do a manual J myself using coolcal and came up with about 36,000 BTU which is 3 tons. This is right smack in the middle of the two systems quoted to me. But I don't know if I did it right. Are there 3rd party services that will take what was quoted to you and perform a manual J and come and do the blower test on your house?
     
  10. Brad

    Brad New Member

    You can definitely get an independent Manual J performed. I'm in the Boston area as well. These guys can do one for you: http://northeastgeo.com/.

    FWIW, I had a couple quotes of $65k and $92k (this one included a propane tankless water heater fed from preheat tank off the desuperheater) for a retrofit of a 3500sqft colonial converting over from baseboard heat (also currently has central AC but ductwork isn't great, lots of flex) to all new ductwork. I've held off for now but expect to eventually go w/ a hydronic system along w/ some minor improvement to the duct work to improve AC.
     
  11. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Variable speed technology has changed everything, although your quotes were not variable speed like a Waterfurnace 7 series. If I would do a manual J for every job we quote, my overhead would be so high and you as a customer would have to pay for it, one way or the other.

    Let say your house is between 30-40KBTU. So what unit do you put in? I'd put in a 4 ton 7 series variable speed unit and move on. If it is 30 KBTU, the heat pump will run at stage 9 on the coldest day of the year, if it is 40 KBTU, it will run at stage 12.
    Manual J does not matter, I would put in the same 4 ton 7 series whether it is 30 or 40 KBTU heat loss. Sometimes we fall for the illusion of precision. Plus we base that exact precision on a lot of guesses and assumptions. What is, for example, the exact R-value of the insulation in your wall? Something no blower test will reveal to you. So you do an educated guess.

    Once you order a system and the manual J heatloss reveals that it is 45KBTU heatloss, we put a 5 ton 7 series unit in, and move on. This practice is cheaper and ultimately serves our customers better by getting them the highest performing systems, and significantly reduces our overhead.

    win-win for everybody.
     

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