Virginia Input regarding the proposal

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by Rob Buffalo, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. Rob Buffalo

    Rob Buffalo New Member

    This house was built in the 40s but is very sturdy; with two floors of 1500sf each and another 1500sf of basement. It has two separate Forced air AC of 3 tonnes and 3.5 tonnes (total of 6.5 tonnes) and an old oil boiler powered baseboard.

    I am very interested in upgrading to a geothermal system. I need help with the two main the proposals that I am considering.

    Proposal#1: Two separate geothermal systems of Climatemaster 26.1 EER 3 tonnes 2 stage Heat Pump with variable speed air handler and 10kw heat with no bells and whistles for the total amount of $46,560.

    Proposal#2: One geothermal system of WaterFurnace 5 series 5.25 tonnes with Hot Water Assist option & Variable Speed blower(ECM), Intellistart (soft starter), "Ultrascroll" Dual Capacity compressor, and Aurora
    Performance and Refrigeration Package with two zones for the total amount of $32,650.

    I confess I have no clue as to how to proceed further. After reading more than few posts here, I am confused as to what should be my main concern and how I can/should proceed.
  2. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I think you should have two close to equal goals in this project. First is comfort and second is cost to get it.

    I would not trash any thing that works, like the base board. To give you real clues I need to know how many BTUH the house needs in the winter. Boiler input, or better yet gallons of what grade oil the home needs. Once we know that we can calculate the sizing for the new equipment.

    I might suggest using water to move heat and cooling. It takes up less space ling the living area and is DIY friendly after the design is done.

    Just a few ideas.

  3. Rob Buffalo
    We are in Virginia. Call me tomorrow we can help you get an honest opinion. We travel the entire state. We sell Climatemaster, WFI, Bosch, Geostar, Enertech so we have you covered with all products
  4. Never let someone talk you into one system with a multiple story home unless your ready to sacrifice comfort.
  5. load calcs, fairly easy but most still dont understand it
    loop design, most cut corners here because of installation cost. Size as much as you can afford to within reason
    ductwork design and installation, ductwork design and installation, ductwork design and installation if you get the point.
  6. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If you already have the ductwork infrastructure for A/C in place, you can use that for forced air. I personally would always use 1 larger heatpump instead of 2, for cost reasons, if you can extend a trunk to the upstairs. You will then likely benefit from zoning between upstairs and downstairs. I am also a big fan of variable speed heat pumps (7 series Waterfurnace, Triology Climatemaster), which would give you added comfort and efficiency.
    Tying into the baseboard will give you extra comfort, but will be less efficient due to the need for higher water temperatures. You can then use chilled water from the heatpump and air handlers to tie into the ductwork for A/C.
    Not sure if you need a high temperature heat pump for baseboard in Virginia to get the needed supply temperature high enough, but this would be something to check out. Alternatively you could use the hydronic air handlers for supplement heat during cold days.
  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Mark is actually asking for data, which usually calculations. Fairly easy in a retrofit house from the 1940? Why don't you tell us what is in the walls, since I would not call that fairly easy.
    And how do you know that most cut corners here, you don't even know them. You are knew here. And given your comments above, you seem to be fairly new to geothermal, too.
    No, a loop field should not be sized to what the customer can afford.
    I am more sensitive to my customers money with loop field size, since you get quickly to the point of no return.
  8. most cut corners here is not meant for the guys on this forum. I was speaking in general to what is being installed everyday as he was asking what to look for.
    Sorry to offend anyone here if they took it the wrong way. Sorry guys

    load calcs are truly the easiest part of the entire process.

    Older homes do not scare us, No problem.

    loop field quote was stated to spend what you can afford to within reason. Key phrase is within reason.
    This is straight from IGSHPA , so I guess they also are to be discredited.

    So please disregard the grumpy old guy as he seems to be stuck in the dinosaur days and ways of doing things!

    Welcome to truly complete geothermal and mechanical innovation
  9. Zoning is a touchy situation. As you can typically get a much more efficient system with the proper designed duct systems on separate systems. First lets start with the fact that zoned systems run longer than smaller independent systems because it is always shifting from one zone to the next and when you add in the fact most geo's have desuperheaters which can add more run times. When you have your one system taxing itself with all of the HVAC zones and then still needing enough energy to manufacture hot water.
    So you then have a bigger machine nailing you for longer runs times wasting energy.
    You will have a much more efficient design by installing 2 much smaller units that will cycle on and off as needed and not just burning energy to provide a smaller load.
    Plus most contractors doing zoning use an in efficient method of using square supply plenums to tie all of the ducted zones into rather than making radius wye's with zone dampers. Their methods are very restrictive and in efficient and will take from the life of the system
    I hope this makes sense.
    If you do zone lets look at the CM Trilogy as it is a only variable capacity system on the market today with an on demand hot water system designed to give you the customer the power to generate your domestic hot water at a rate of 500% or 5 cop for hot water. This is 55% more than the nearest competitors WFI variable capacity machine using a desuperheater.
    Hey we are a Climatemaster Geo Elite dealer who can offer you the absolute most efficient machine in the Industry
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    No you don't necessarily get a more efficient system with separate systems, nor do zoned systems run longer, nor do they always shift from one zone to the next, and the desuperheater does not make a difference for the zoning. The zoning system you are describing I am not familiar with.
    The zoning system we usually use puts as many BTUs in the zone until the zone is satisfied, usually at a lower stage for blower and compressor, and opens any other zone only when that one calls for heat. The amount of BTUs the heatpump puts out is determined by the amount of zones calling, and usually does not affect the efficiency, especially with variable speed equipment. The amount of BTUs the zones need does not change, as a matter of fact the lack of zoning is usually less efficient, since you might deliver heat to an area which does not need it.

    And the desire for zoning has nothing to do with the water heating method, nor does one impair the other. Some people here are rather self serving promotional than informational, lets hope this place here does not turn into a used car dealer forum.
  11. wow you can miss consture almost anything anything. You are a piece of work.
    The invitation is still open for you.
    Please make time in your schedule to visit us here in Virginia to see how things are done correct.
  12. Rob Buffalo

    Rob Buffalo New Member

    Thank you all for taking part in the discussion and for all the information provided.

    To follow up:

    - Before I was given the quotes, the salesmen did the load calcs measuring the sizes of all the rooms in the house, looked at all the doors and windows and a survey of the insulation in the attic (they couldn't check for insulation in the walls, so I think they assumed the minimum). I was told that the house needed somewhere between 65k-75k BTUH combined.

    - As for the baseboard heat, it costs me more than $2500 (a little less than 1,000 gal) to heat up the house last winter (it was a particularly harsh one).

    I am leaning towards the WaterFurnace 5 series 5.25 tonnes. I don't know if its worth spending another ~$4000 and get the 7 series. Also not sure if I should add another tonne for another ~$1000. The ductwork to join the two floors would most likely be a 12"x10"-ish rectangle trunk running the 15 feet.

    PS: I was under the impression that the desuperheater does not impose any additional load on the system besides the circulating pump; the DSH was just a heat overflow buffer tank from the compressor.
  13. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    WOW. A self healing question.

    I try not to talk to myself here.

  14. I would consider the Climatemaster Trilogy for the fantastic 45 EER and the only on demand hot water feature that no other machine can offer. It is your best bang for your buck. You just need to find a Geo Elite Dealer to do the work.
    What part of VA are you located?
    Check into the Trilogy before making any decisions
  15. It does take BTUH's to generate hot water, even as a by product
    No matter how you look at it.
  16. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I am going to skip the spirits.
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree. Plus one might come through as being intoxicated all the time with too much spirits....kind of embarrassing
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
    Mark Custis likes this.
  18. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Too funny.
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Your propane usage indicates less than 50KBTUs heat loss in Richmond VI climate, even if you have a 80% furnace and keep your thermostat at 65F, but that already includes your internal and solar gains. I think the variable speed 7 series is worth every penny, $4000 is the up charge at cost. Make sure it includes the single pump variable speed flow center if you go that route. Plus it is better to zone.
    When the DSH runs, it steals up to 10% from the capacity in heating mode. The hot water has to come from somewhere.
  20. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    I have had a machine that makes on demand hot water and does it at the same time as making warm air for 5 1/2 years.

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