I need some basics here

Discussion in 'Geothermal Loops' started by Krsw, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Ahhh man too much research and not nearly enough time, it looks to me like
    chlorine actually degrades the specific heat of water, but not by much, when sizing for heat load on a pool engineers neglect the chlorine and simply use the spacific heat of water
     
  2. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    I may design a specialized cover for it considering the job Im trying to do with it
     
  3. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Now Utilities (oporate above the law), gas and oil companies exempty from the clean water act (oporate above the law) I wouldn't mind sending them packing....
     
  4. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Nothing works like several spelling, capitalization, and punctuation errors to garner respect for the message and messenger!
     
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  5. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Right, well it's not a sales pitch and in no way is it a final presentation, I would say that if it was'nt close enough for you to decipher and understand then you may have something real to complain about.

    In my defense the cell phone key board is a little small and I'm not the type to sweat the miniscule when it has little meaning. In all the studying I've done on this, It makes far more economic sense to just use a tank, that can more completely be isolated and put to work. It just does'nt make a lot of sense to me that we are going to move all of this heat energy around and not use it for something. At this point we remove it (energy) from the ground and put it in the house. For cooling we remove it from the house and put it in the ground where in most cases it is not going to be useful. My point is, we need to innovate and set a price point that is going to be attainable for a higher percentage of people.

    Consider Hyperloop Technologies, if they complete the Hyperloop from Maine to California and have the capacity, what is going to make them more money? A 500 dollar ticket, or a 250 dollar ticket? The 250 dollar ticket will make more money, It would be attainable to far more people and people with more money will travel more frequently.

    Heating and cooling is not the same economically, but I propose that a more attainable price point would easily be worth more in the long run. With more systems on line, their will be a much higher demand for technicians to maintain and install such systems.

    I will only say it once more. If high tech, high efficiency systems are only available to the wealthy and subsidised low income housing projects, this is trouble for those that can not afford installation. The monopoly utilities will not take a loss, they still have the same milage of conductor and controls to maintain. They are just one more industry too big to fail. Those that are trapped and stuck on that grid, are going to have to make up the difference.
     
  6. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We move it around because we use it for something! I certainly appreciate the "out of the box view", after all, most discoveries were made by people who were new to the field or not from the field at all they were about to change.

    However, what you call research is not research. Research is testing a hypothesis. You don't do that. You seem to read up on subjects, probably on the internet (great resource) and then say why don't we do this, without understanding the physical destain of a certain technology. Thermal heat transfer needs a heat differential, once you heat up the medium (heat sink, tank) the differential is not there anymore, and we loose the ability to transfer heat. Everything people have tried has not worked very well.

    You ask for unrealistic things, like you hyper loop $250 ticket. Lets develop the technology first, built the hyper loop over (or through) the rockies, lets make sure it is safe (earthquakes), and then make sure that billions of people want to go from exactly Maine to exactly California to make sure they can get to a $250 price point.
    You act like the technology exists already, is financially sound, and the only reason it is not brought forward is the monopoly utilities of the world are blocking it.
    Geo is more expensive than a gas furnace, that is the price of harvesting free energy, instead of burning hydro carbons.

    I had this discussion recently with New York State legislators, who were telling us to get the prices down for geo to allow more implementation of geo technology. The problem is that it takes 4 hours to replace a gas furnace. But to convert a house to geo usually takes 80 hours inside (2 guys for 5 days) and another 80 hours for the outside, so that is 40 times more labor involved. Nothing I can do about it. Do we get better, hopefully, but there are limits. When we then explained and showed the math that geo delivers 3 times as much renewable energy than solar for every upfront $$$ spent (before incentives), but that is what the legislation supports generously.

    Until someone invents miniature nuclear fusion reactors for each household at the price of a furnace (which is essentially what you are asking) geo is needed in colder climates to get more people off fossil fuels.

    If Tesla is not building expensive cars first to show what the technology can do, and successfully scares the heck out of the German car establishment (jahoo), he will not have developed the technology and the resources (including the financial resources) to bring a cheaper electric car to more people.

    If a drug company cannot recoup it research and development costs through a patent protection period, and after that can benefit everyone through lower prices as a generic, it will not take on the risk to develop a new drug, and we will not have new and better drugs.

    The incentive to make money drives research (not reading stuff on the internet, real research) and development in any given field. It is called Capitalism, and has ensured the highest quality of life and highest incentives for its population when practiced with some social aspects. The opposite is called Communism, which really has ruined every country and caused general poverty wherever it is practiced.

    You are talking in a naive way about economic mechanism where don't seem to fully understand the development cost and the current limitations of the technology. Sure, lets make the price point more attainable, when it is clear that you never put a system in. Lets not bring people off the grid one by one, because it will leave the ones who cannot afford the new technology behind, who then have to pay more for the grid.

    May be you should move to North Korea, or central Russia, and find out first hand what life is all about without any capitalistic approach, without the need to come up with new technologies and have them being financially viable. That right, there won't be any, and life will suck by our standards!
    There, having a cellphone with a keyboard, or internet to do "research", is unheard of.

    So until you know a bit more about the mechanism in life, I mean real life, do not criticize people and tell them to do it better who doing their best to bring new technologies forward, and actually building them, even at a higher price point right now.

    Contribute on a constructive way here, become a real researcher, innovate, move the needle, be driven to do better, but don't just sit there with your cellphone with a keyboard and tell other that they have not done enough.:(
     
  7. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    By the way no comma (,) when your listing in a sentance and using the word "and" we can play this game all day long. This is why production publications are often found to be in error.
     
  8. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Research is very often conducted by reading the work of others, I am in college for Energy Service and Technology and currently getting top grades. Saying I know nothing about it is a gross misstatement. Guess what brother, I know 12 year olds that could do the math you do to hook up a system you had nothing to do with designing. I could teach the average 4th grader to read your gauge and subtract... All most of the technitions know is hardly a step above common knowledge and understanding of the physical world. Information sharing is one of the best forms of research. Im not digging out the dictionary for the liles of you.
     
  9. arkie6

    arkie6 Member Forum Leader

    It is called a serial comma. There is nothing wrong with the punctuation as shown. It is not incorrect to place a comma before "and" when listing three or more items.

    "In English language punctuation, a serial comma or series comma (also called Oxford comma and Harvard comma) is a comma placed immediately before the coordinating conjunction (usually and, or, or nor) in a series of three or more terms. For example, a list of three countries might be punctuated either as "France, Italy,and Spain" (with the serial comma), or as "France, Italy and Spain" (without the serial comma)."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
     
  10. arkie6

    arkie6 Member Forum Leader

    You don't realize how much you don't know until you get out in the real world and experience it. A college degree is one of the lower rungs on the ladder of learning. A. Smith (BSEE, 1989, magna cum laude, 26+ years in the field of Electrical Engineering)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
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  11. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If you read the work of others you must also understand the flaw in the research of others. Given the ignorance you are displaying here I doubt that you read between the lines of published research, understanding the flaws and limitations of published work.

    The comments you made here told everybody that you lack knowledge and common sense about geo systems, you are in college and just start to gather theoretical knowledge, maybe knowing enough to be dangerous.
    But you think you know it all (which makes you dangerous), but you also displayed arrogance, a good example were you incorrect perception about serial commas. Kind of ridicules to think about it.
    But you also had to talk down on installers. Can a 12 year old do the math to design a system? Questionable, since most college grads fail when more than rule of thumb knowledge is needed. Can they read a gauge and subtract? Sure, but then can they tell me what the number means, and how does it tell you what might be wrong with a systems performance.
    We are not just installers here, many have advanced degrees and tons of applied field knowledge. My installers have a whole lot more knowledge, integrity and willingness to learn more, rather than thinking that they know it all. Which I for sure would not tolerate, since then they are prone to make very costly mistakes.

    You are who I thought you are. A college kid who thinks he or she knows it all, who got some good grades by making the right cross at the right spot in some standardized multiple choice tests, who goes on the internet in some technical forum and tells everyone there that he or she knows it much better.

    Go out there in the real life, learn to be kind, learn to be respectful, learn from your mistakes, and the mistakes of others. For know I would prefer to hire the 12 year old over yourself when you apply for your real job, chances are that a 12 year is not so full of themselves yet, .....and therefore causes lesser damage.
     
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  12. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    I dont think I know it all.... So everything you just said to me adds up to this, I need to pull my storage tank into a slight vacuum that way what I am adding to it is boiling, say 80 degree water as I add heat energy. Seeming it is saturated I can add and take away quite a lot of energy without changing the delta t between my coil and the heat exchange medium. This could be a key to a lower volume tank. I could do the same thing without the vacuum, If I have enough water.... But for the purpose of price reliefe a vacuum will probably work great. I intend to double major in electrical and mechanical engineering with a concentration in energy, And look Im investing thought to ideas. It doesn't bother me a bit not to get paid for it.
     
  13. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I have been knocking back black and tans and doing epoxy work on my snipe... So I have got some patience stored up. When we talk about geo and economics the point you are missing is that it is all about location. Geo is based on coupling the compressor with the earth, so in the end it is all about the cost to construct that coupling in your area. Maine is some hard ass earth below 3' to do anything, thus the cost to drill percussion air rotary, or sonic. In a lot of the country mud rotary or horizontal loops will get it done for cheap. so you need to look everywhere to get a handle on average costs, not just your neck of the rock. I live on a giant sandbar that is composed of three states. drilling closed loops here is done for as little as 1,500 per ton to as high as 2,000. So the earth link is very reasonable. In areas where their is enough overburden to bury loops before encountering bedrock, cost is also affordable. In the state of a thousand lakes, pond and lake loops are hugely popular. So your economic view is skewed by location. If you want to push a new idea in your area where the coupling is not affordable to the masses, good on you! As a industry we do a good job identifying the most cost effective coupling to offer based on location. Hard rock with little overburden and extreme heating loads is tough for anything but fossil fuels.
    Eric
     
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  14. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Great comment Erick. You are most likely right that my concept would not be best per dollar. I've already decided that it is best to design per location, I strongly believe that is the best way. I'm just sharing ideas mostly. Some get offended, then I get slightly offended which tends to embolden me a bit. So im not a great speaker, when that was never a point. I came here to learn a little. I'm accomplishing that pretty well. Even if people got a little defensive in response. Not here to piss anyone off but I guess what we get when media, economists, and government all take turns bashing an industry for a bit too long. It cost a lot to put that much copper in the ground, its worth it in the long run. I get it.
     
  15. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Flaws in research, I never told anyone that they were not doing enough, but one of you said that that is what I said. Talk about flaws in research.... I wouldn't know anything about the real world :) never would I.... I vote republican for a reason, I know the real law applies no matter what. p2/v2=p1/v1 every day in countless variations of terms. Nearly every machine ever built has to follow this law whether it knows it or not...
     
  16. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Socialism is like a series circut. 1 million resistors that all supplied a little voltage, a really big resistor(that will distribute the voltage) and millions more smaller resistors that didn't bring any voltage with them. In the end we all get nothing.
     
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You get only paid for something if you add value. You are not there yet.

    So what are you trying to achieve? Keep in mind that energy cannot be created, it can just change its form.
    You have a storage tank, you pull it into a vacuum (which typically takes energy for a vacuum pump, you change the boiling point to I assume 80C (you mean metrics?), which can store energy through the phase change. Then what? If you google "phase change energy storage tank" you get plenty of hits. Nothing new.
    Yes, without the vacuum works as well. You need more volume. We call that a loop field. Ground which is saturated with water and stores thermal energy.
    Now, if you put it in perspective at we need about 80,000,000 BTUs per heating season, plus about 20,000,000 for hot water, then do the math and figure out the size of your tank, and the cost of a giant pressure tank and the material. Then lets discuss what is cheaper, a loop field or a phase change energy storage tank.
    I give the same question to my 12 year old daughter, lets see who is quicker.
    Nothing wrong about ideas, that is the easy part. Now lets think this through and tell me how to build it.
     
  18. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Your house is too big lol, jk a modest 3 bed home around here is about 65Mbtu, water is probably not much difference. Id use solar collectors, clean and free after initial investment... Id use the solar that is over sized for domestic hot water, id simply divert it when potable storage was at 120 F or so it would always exchange with the storage tank... Not sure on material price, but a 50gal tank offers about 607kbtu throughout phase change neglecting losses thats a lot of refrigeration....
     
  19. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    I wonder what would happen if I kept the ambient tempurature slightly higher than the tank temperature.... I supose I would get back some of the heat of compression and heat of expansion
     
  20. Dinnerbellmel

    Dinnerbellmel New Member

    ...Don't feed the troll. This is a debate you can't win guys.
     

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