I need some basics here

Discussion in 'Geothermal Loops' started by Krsw, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Thanks for the little bit of help in understanding the ground source system.
     
  2. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    And I never called you greedy, the first thing you learn when going for an engineering degree, is that its not all about money, its about improving the quality of life. I'm just sick of people putting profits before quality or even the customers that keep it all going.... It's rediculous for a man to think his money makes him... I genuinely appreciate your knowledge sharing....
     
  3. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Im not saying your business is a monopoly either, that was directed toward Utilities that really are monopolies, oh how sorely misunderstood I am....
     
  4. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I will troll you. LOL
     
  5. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Eureka, I know how to do the same thing at low cost!!!!!! : ) hahahaha mind blowing!!!! See I did come here to learn, but your crazy if you think I'm going to give the Idea up to......,Greedy Bub
     
  6. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

  7. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I would be interested to know the OP age.

    In youth we are romantic and idealistic
    Higher education fosters that notion
    Then you get the bill for your education and a boat load of responsibility
    that turns everyone into a capitalist, willingly or not

    Purporting to be John Galt is a lofty claim indeed.

    Eric
     
  8. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader

    Krsw

    I "applaud" your original enthusiasm and quest for knowledge. Then, somewhere along the line at your direction, your original topic turned into a diatribe against industry.

    Please keep in mind-
    -Your 50K estimate for a system is high. In 2010, an average 3 ton system was estimated 17K by GEO.
    -The GHP market is currently very small, ranging from 2% to 8% on a state to state basis and growing. As GHP systems become mainstream competitive prices will come down. Industry will be required to make it work.

    I fear you are trying to reinvent the wheel. Respectfully, I suggest you continue learning before you embark on your quest to change the world.
     
  9. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Here is the issue, as more and more people who are fortunate enough disconnect or drastically reduce their use of utility energy, the entire grid still has to stay up and running. What does this mean for people that can not afford these technologies? Is the utility just going to take a loss? I doubt it, so who is going to make up the difference? A Government subsidy? That wouldn't do anyone any good.... I actually have a great idea after this discussion, my preliminary estimate is 12-15k dollars installed for a system that should easily deliviver COP's of 4.5 to 5. Better than Geothermal, a lot less piping and alot lower pump pressure needed...
     
  10. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    I should correct that a little, the pressure will be similar to any vapor pump, but with less piping it should circulate the refrigerant more eficciently
     
  11. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    This is all great, let us know when you have it up and running reliable, and also pay your bills to stay in business. I am the first to listen.....;)
     
  12. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    The IEA is reporting that thermal energy storage coupled with heat pumps is the wave of the future, economists are saying thermal energy storage may just mean the end of the line for utility companies, there is right now a comunity in Alberta Canada of 90 homes that get 90% of their space heating from a thermal energy storage tank, my Idea is nothing new, but I do intend to improve it and give it added uses.... Tell me again what is impossible, what you all say cannot be done, is already being done in other parts of the world. Japan is working on above ground solar powered district heating coupled with heat pumps.... A 500,000 gallon tank offers over 4 million BTU per degree F... We are going to need thermostats to keep the storage tanks from over heating ;)
     
  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    ;)Agreed, thermal storage and heat pumps are the way of the future. That is why we use the ground as thermal storage and use heat pumps to extract the heat.

    Now, get that done for 12-15 K and at a COP of 4.5-5, and again, I am the first to listen.

    Just don't throw examples at me which don't add up. What is the cost of the thermal storage project in Canada, and the COP?
    An energy star house need about 85 million BTUs in a tank for the heating season, what is the cost of the tank, and the BTUs it looses over the season, and the cost of the solar collector.
    Many things can be done, but are they practical, efficient and cost effective?

    Anser those questions also before you tell me what is possible, otherwise it will never be implemented, and we are wasting our time here.
     
  14. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Krsw,

    Nobody said anything couldn't be done. You didn't exactly present any questions in that regard. You just started to ask some very basic questions and then presented a strawman argument of $50K. When nobody responded to that, you picked a battle with an imaginary cartel.

    And the Alberta system is nothing new (at least not in concept). There are other strata examples as well.

    Here's a list of options that all have real life examples:
    - waste heat recapturing (industrial, sewer, domestic water)
    - lake/groundwater systems
    - hybrid solar/geo; gas/geo; electric/geo; biosolids/geo
    - thermal phase change liquids (wax, ice)
    - high temperature geothermal

    I'll also add to doc's list above. You need a product that is consumer friendly, has a supply chain, and can be installed by a DIYr (assuming that is your route) to local codes.
     
  15. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Its not about how many BTU I remove per season, its how many I can put in daily without paying for it in payments, the earth is a great storage device. But it cost too much to install in some places, in Maine we need at least 2 boreholes for an average house and untill you do the drilling you can not be sure of the quality and quantity. Thats a Huge gamble, im talking about a tank big enough for an individual house, and yes it would be far less expensive than gambling with 400ft deep wells that may not even work... Policy is likely to be different where you live, but around here we heat for 7 months a year, cool for 3 and the other 2 months are comfortable... A heat biased system makes sence in Maine. A COP of 7 (poven in systems that add heat to storage) way less energy in pumping, and not questioning wether it will work before I spend 10 grand on drilling, just makes more sense....
     
  16. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The drilling is not ever really in question. It will work. A design can be adjusted quite readily should you encounter unexpected statigraphy. Unless you drill over a huge void I guess.

    Open loop is different of course. It depends on a production well. But then that is where the regional experts and resources are invaluable.

    But these guys are on the same page as you - http://www.thermalbatterysystems.com/
     
  17. waterpirate

    waterpirate Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Please see closed loop. any bore that will accept enough pipe for the load and is grouted/earth coupled properly will work. If you want to hate on the cost per foot to drill, I suggest you go buy a drill rig that is capable of drilling consolidated material in Maine, and then get back to me. If you are here to fight you are not going to get it here. what you are going to get is a trial by fire for accepted methods and a fair examination of new ideas based on cost vs. return. My tongue in cheek reply to you would be to move south and solve al your problems.
    Eric
     
  18. Krsw

    Krsw Member

     
  19. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Thats the best yet, You have some Idea of how to speak to peaple, I respect that... I would say we need to do the best we can with every location, engineering should be best available per location.... Not onr suze fits all..... And the govt should stop paying for starting on the wrong foot for every location, the serviceman is always needed, why pay for starting on the wrong foot. Per local is the only way to engineer, but it is not about helping people, thats a problem i will be working on, I dont need bazilliond to do me best, keep teaching I just grew potable water on the same system
     
  20. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Im not here to fight, and im not saying I want to put you out of business, everyone is still going to have jobs, refrigeration cycle isnt going anywhere.... I was told by respected Geothermal professional that 1 well will not cut it in Maine.... A deep enough pond would do what Im wanting to do but thats not always available.... Im thinking that some day we might be swimming in our thermal battery, a salt water set up would even improve the specific heat insulated, in a green house room attached to the south side of the house, insulated @ cover for when its not in use, heat domestic hot water with the same collectors and divert it to go straight to the pool when your potable water is hot enough.... My cost keeps growing here, other than the cost of development which is mostly time, i figure 35 or 40k might cover it
     

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