I need some basics here

Discussion in 'Geothermal Loops' started by Krsw, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    My first question being, how is the water being used? Is the water being used as a refrigerant here? I guess what I'm getting at is we should be able to do such things at a much lower cost, this is really simple and old technology, does the ground loop really have to be that long? And 2.) The flow rate confuses me a great deal, from what I gather is that the flowrate is suggested by mfg's it must be in direct correlation with the size of the condensing/evaporator coil depending on mode. Is it illegal to burry refrigerant line or something? Is that why its using water? I want to get to the bottom of all this, I am dead set on finding, no making this an affordable technology for average or even below average people... I have been told no it's impossible over and over and I simply refuse no for an answer. I know there is more to the story than no its impossible.... I am currently studying HVAC and haven't got to this class yet, this is my jump start
     
  2. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Google DX systems.
     
  3. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Ok, I understand a great deal about refrigerant, refrigeration cycle, metering devices, compression of vapor and pressure temperature relationship, I guess that is why I dont understand why ground coupling has to cost so much. Are they using water as a refrigerant?
     
  4. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Or is it that the ground is really slow at conducting heat to a fluid medium? It seams to me I could just about engineer a vapor pump and coil set up, burry the evaporator in the ground 10 feet and let her rip.... Would require the right refrigerant and pressures, but highly possible, seeming its the same temperature all the time a capilary tube should be sufficient for metering.
     
  5. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Run times, load demands, soil thermoconductivity, etc.

    So, yes, lots of limits on what you're thinking. Particularly since the you influence the evaporator media just as much as it influences your COP - so the ground would not be a fixed temp in your setup.
     
  6. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader

    Bingo!
    It's the same temperature all the time UNTIL you start extracting or rejecting heat. Then, you are at the mercy of time until recovery.
     
  7. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Thats true, because Im dumping heat energy its warming the ground, so that is a big factor in a ground coupled system....
     
  8. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Makes me wonder if it would somehow be possible to have it on multiple coils and cycle through the coils individually, certainly would be an engineering challenge to do such a thing...
     
  9. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader

    Change that to BIG.
    You just made your ground connection BIGGER. You now don't need to cycle your loops. Your loops are sized to the total load.
     
  10. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Haha, and these slinky coils are more affordable than a traditional closed ground loop, im reading a little while we have this conversation..... My primary goal is to make it more affordable, 50k just seems a bit much, and out of reach to about 70% of Americans.... Its sad to me that efficient clean heating and cooling is so expensive. I suppose I could work more on my Idea of a hybrid ASHP using the ground to heat air, good thing it has a lower specific heat than water. lol I may be able to design it affordable enough to be worth it. I live in Maine so ASHPs are ok but need backup, if I can extract the heat energy I need from the ground they could run all year long and be cheeper to install than GSHPs
     
  11. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    So, the ground water is being used as a heat exchange medium, but in some places its legal to pipe the refrigerant right in the ground and they do not require water, is that correct?
     
  12. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Slow down a bit:)

    Make sure you understand how a geothermal system is designed before bringing Uber to the geothermal market.
     
  13. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Do you have any links for heavily detailed information? Ive got a Geothermal class next semester, its just too long to wait, lol.... I love refrigeration cycle... I could never get a corporation to make it cheaper anyway bub.... Thats why when I get done with Energy Service And Technology at the community college Im going on to Engineering, Im basically going to be forced to design and engineer my own systems, I'll be building them one system at a time for people that otherwise couldnt afford it.... I do however fully intend to tear down the energy monopolies that deliver electricity, I'm convinced that simple, clean, nondestructive machines can power the planet.... Everything you can see or touch, even things we cannot see are full of energy....
     
  14. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    All geo is built one system at a time.

    Or are you talking custom heat pumps? The money savings from custom heat pump construction is probably similar to the money savings in custom building cars.

    All the power to you in this pursuit. You just don't need to disparage an existing market to get there. Engineering = business = politics. You need to balance all three in your career to find success.
     
  15. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Im saying custom built heat pumps, so I've found a few good sources and I was correct, they are using ground water so that refrigerant is not being piped directly through the ground, have you ever heard of a sortec machine? We have the only one I know of in North America at the college I attend, it is a solar hot water device that has a vacuum pump attached to it so that it can also be used to cool a home.... Its quite an interesting machine. ... It has a separate part of the system it bleeda off some of the hot water and the vacuume pump turns on, the liquin water is now very cold and boiling off, gets sent back to the storage tank with a higher btu content. The system cost about 70k us dollars, the parts are simple, the concept is really nothing new, we have been manipulating pressure for refrigerators for 100 years, the parts and labor probably total 2000 dollars total, 70k is not business, its pure greed, you can think greed gets you somewhere, but when thw honest and decent people get into business, even if you drop your price the customers probably will not come back to you.... If I have enough money to buy 100 1billion dollar yachts and the hard workers beneath me have diddley, and all my customers get ripped off to such a degree, that is not business, that is greed. What you just said is the equivalent of saying that its ok for a drug company to sell a product that cost them 50 cents to make and is in no short supply, for 1000 dollars a month based on each individuals demand for the product, not the entire demand on the market, its life or death, it cost us 50 cents to make but you must pay us 1000 dollars a month.... Pure greed and not business at all. I apreciate honest business, greed I could do without..... When JP Morgan shut Tesla down, he was too stupid to realize each house only needed 1 large set of waffers with a meter behind it for each house and he would have had his way, instead we are 100 years behind because of ignorant blind greed....
     
  16. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    So you really didn't come here to learn anything? You just came here to rant about random markets?

    What does a ducting system cost? What does a radiant system cost? What does a heat pump cost? What does drilling cost?

    What margins do you think this industry operates at?

    Signed
    Greedy Bub
     
  17. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Monopoly is illegal, unless your filthy rich of coarse.... Im going to set this world straight, and turn the economy on its head, and you know what, im going to make a damn good living doing it, Im going to pull the poor out of poverty by making high tech available to them, and cutting of the corporarions that have made sure they stay that way with over priced product and corruption, monthly payments on things that had aught to be damn near free to own.... Im willing to do it all on my own, I think I can do the same thing as sortec without glycol or vacuum tubes.....
     
  18. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    Nope I came here to learn, and I did learn some, maybe the systems you install should be engineered to be more affordable.... Engineering is about improving the quality of life for "everyone", by making things like this affordable to only the wealthy, you put more pressure on the payment paying poor to make up the difference, consider that....
     
  19. urthbuoy

    urthbuoy Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Monopoly?

    There are 4 companies that do what I do in a city of 90,000 - (say 140,000 market). We all use different suppliers of the 20 or so heat pump manufacturers in North America.

    A client gets 3 quotes for their project...forget it, just realized I'm probably being trolled.
     
  20. Krsw

    Krsw Member

    I aint no troll, but sure as hell am pissed off that some people are left out because it wouldnt make your boss a millionair if it were affordable....
     

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