Washington Hp Home DIY Geothermal

Discussion in 'Geothermal Heat Pump Testimonials' started by Hp Home, Dec 30, 2015.

  1. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You do enjoy destroying my credibility. How shallow and sad for you.

    You never hear or reply to my questions, poor man. This has been a unilateral communication for a while. You are the Pope and I am the unbeliever.

    It no longer matters to me as your attitude and the grid lock in Washington about the tax credits have caused me to retire. I would have continued in this thread, if you were not such an ass. I find no pleasure in offering opinions to have the fuehrer say I am wrong.

    I did have the math correct. BTW, you can not read nor remember, "there is no undersized pump.". Either/or means both to you. A picture of customer owned manifold show both flow meters and balancing valves with built in stab lock fittings.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
  2. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    I cannot destroy your credibility, nor do I seek to do such thing, you can only do this yourself.

    In that way you have offered opinions here that go along with your previous statements that you do not care about efficiency and that it is not your electric bill to pay.
    No you did not have the math correct, you never did the math, even after you told someone here seeking help that a 5th grader cold do the math.

    If you have retired now, you might want to use the time and read up on the physics and understand the math, and what makes those systems efficient. You appear to have a wealth of in-field experience, evolve to understand the the physical principles of modern geo system, which are stinkingly different from older boiler systems. That way you could really make a worthwhile contribution here.
  3. Hp Home

    Hp Home Member

    I am looking at the motorized 3-way valve that goes between the heat pump and hot/cold buffer tanks.

    Piping will all be 1.25" copper but with the Caleffi valve 1" is the largest size, with a Cv of 4.5.

    Using the formula H=(2.308/Cv^2)(f^2)
    with f= 9 gpm and Cv= 4.5 I get 9.232 feet of head for this valve.

    Are my calculations correct?
    Do I need a bigger valve or bigger pump? I think there will be a huge jump in price from a 1" to 1.25" valve.
  4. Hp Home

    Hp Home Member

    I think Belimo is the answer but they are spendy. Looking at the catalog so far everything I see is 'not for changeover applications'. Mixing and diverting valves.
  5. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader

    Belimo has just recently added "not for changeover applications" to their B3 series CCV valves. I do not know why. I have used them in the past with no measurable leak by. Does anyone else have insights into why?

    Be very careful with your valve selection in regards to Cv. Even if you match Cv to flow rate (an old rule of thumb) you are imposing 2.31 fthd at the valve with water at 62F. Add antifreeze and 35F water and head will increase. Also, Typically with a 3way valve the diverted branch Cv is 70% of the straight through Cv.

    The increased cost of a high Cv valve should be well worth it considering a 3way valve is doing the work of two 2way valves.
  6. Hp Home

    Hp Home Member

    Thank you the Belimo B3 line of CCV valves is what I was looking at. Curious about why they added the 'not for changeover' statement.

    I think for this I will get the B331 valve which has a Cv rating of 25. Still need to figure out the actuator, they have quite a variety but a simple motorized A or B will do.
  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes, Belimo is the ones we use for quality and high CV. Beware that the B - AB port has a designed leakage of 2%, whereas the A-AB port has a designed leakage of 0%.
    2% of hot water can heat up a chilled water tank pretty quickly. So we sometimes use 2 valves and enter the tank through the A port, and then leave the tank through another vale with the B port towards the tank. That way it seals the water flow completely, but can still depressurize.

    Keep in mind, quality, efficiency and hassle free operation matters. A few hundred dollars more to ensure the latter in well spend money. Most customers appreciate the quality long after they forget about the price!
  8. Hp Home

    Hp Home Member

    Seems strange to pay big bucks for a high end valve that leaks. Do cheaper valves leak even worse then?

    I was going to plumb it with AB to heat pump, A to hot tank and B to cold tank. So I need something between A and hot tank? 2-way motorized valve or are you using two 3-way valves?
  9. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Not sure why it is designed that way.You can either have a 2 way valve on the other side, we always used 3 way. I find it beneficial, since they depressurize that tank/circuit. Yes, AB should be heat pump, again, I use one 3 way instead of (2) 2 way.
  10. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader

    Take a look at the B325 valve. It is 1" but has a Cv of 30 (probably because it has no characterizing disk which is not needed in a on/off application). The LRB24-3 actuator would be suitable for this valve. Add an S on the end to specify an end switch for control wiring options. If you go with an 1 1/4" valve you will have to step up to the higher torque actuator ARB24-3.

    Change over from H and C tanks would require qty 2 - 3way valves. Pipe as follows to prevent <2% leakage. This will require wiring and configuring actuators to operate opposite each other in relationship to A and B ports.
    HP Load Out Valve
    HP Load Out - AB
    Hot Tank - A
    Cold Tank - B

    HP Load In Valve
    HP Load In - AB
    Hot Tank - B
    Cold Tank - A
    Hp Home likes this.
  11. Hp Home

    Hp Home Member

    Thank you Geoxne that is a big help. I have been scratching my head trying to fully understand the details of the hot/cold changeover. So spring checks on the return pipes are not necessary with (2) 3-way valves plumbed this way, correct?

    I also found this valve-
    It is pricey but it sounds like it doesn't have the leakage issue. One of these plus 2 spring checks is about the same cost as 2 Belimo B3's. But does the (2) 3-way valve setup flow better than the spring check setup?
  12. geoxne

    geoxne Active Member Forum Leader


    Check valves prevent flow opposite of intended flow paths. That is not the risk here. I do not think check valves are going to do anything here.
    Deuce likes this.
  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The Belimos are of high quality. The leakage rate can be your friend, ensuring depressurization (pressure equalization) if oriented as geoxne describes it.
    Deuce likes this.
  14. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What if one breaks and the other does not? Check valves do not need logic or motors. They are cheap. All things in a system that can break will. They all need isolation valves, especially if you are smart and are treating cleaned water. I will not use Lake Erie water plain.
  15. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Then you have a 2% leakage rate and will see warm water getting slowly into your cold tank, or vice versa. If all things in a system can and will break, isn't it better if you have lesser things in your system, especially when they are cheap and are notorious to fail. I yet have to see a Belimo valve fail, but I have seen many check valves go bad. Plus check valves increase the pressure drop. They have their role, but usually not in combination with motorized valves.
  16. Hp Home

    Hp Home Member

    What does this mean? I was planning to import good water and add furnox to it. But what are you saying needs isolation valves?
  17. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Doc still thinks in a different language than I.

    I think the difference between a good job and a hake job is serviceability. Any thing that can need to be replaced needs isolation valves, or service valves.

    Lake Erie is very lime hard water. It needs to be treated, which I learned the hard way. The water itself is OK I have been drinking it for over sixty years. It is very aggressive.

    If you get the Fernox rep in Strongsville, Ohio, you will live happily ever after.

  18. Hp Home

    Hp Home Member

    I like learning in different languages it makes for a more well rounded education. I see that there are different styles, different opinions, and different ways to do things. Some optimize comfort, some optimize efficiency, sometimes I think I would be happy if it just works. But comfort and efficiency are obviously the goal.

    I am about 2,700 miles from Strongsville, OH but I would be happy to buy from him if they can ship. I live in the middle of nowhere so I buy nearly everything online and have the brown truck bring it to me.
  19. heatoldhome

    heatoldhome Geo Student Forum Leader

    I have tried several times to contact Fernox. Never once did I get a response.
  20. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Turn both belimo 3 way valves to a certain position, and you can isolate either the cold tank or the hot tank circuit. And not a single rationale for additional check valves. You have a pump there, water only flows one way!

    Nothing wrong with full port isolation valves, but the 3 way belimos already fulfill that function in this application.

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