Pennsylvania HowTo Prove I Have Desuperheater In My Carrier GT?

Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by csementuh, May 19, 2016.

  1. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    GW's Cherry tree is a grade school myth.

    Your statement that anyone who trusts their contractor is treated unfairly invalidates anything else you might say here.

    Go forth, Caped Avenger, turn tables and wreak havoc on all contracting evildoers! Move quickly lest anyone inadvertently tread upon your cape leaving you prostrate!
  2. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    You misquoted my statement. But it really doesn't matter.
  3. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    When I'm looking at Geothemal Heat Pumps on ebay trying to find a good deal for a potential customer, I always look for the two additional Inlet & Outlet ports that indicate there is a Desuperheater in the Unit.
  4. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Make sure it is not a water-water unit with 2 ports for the load and 2 ports for the source...;)
  5. Stevethomas

    Stevethomas New Member

    Really?! I'm glad my unit wasn't bought off eBay! o_O I think I'd immediately write off any contractor who says he purchases his equipment off eBay, even if it was to save me money. Is that commonplace for this industry?
  6. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Scary, isn't it?Let me assure you that this is not commonplace. But Mrrxtech lives in a very different least from mine.
  7. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    The DIY folks will find Ingram's Heat & Air in Paducah, Kentucky and other reputable companies to buy their heat pumps from on ebay.

    I buy repair parts for everything I own on ebay and keep my Washer & Dryer running for example. I buy my geothermal supplies, home furnishings like ceiling fans and bathroom fans, building materials, and items for other projects I take on by using ebay.

    I've bought vehicles that I'm still driving after they were already 8 or more years old by buying from Florida. They are like new due to no rust.

    Things I need are delivered to my door without spending additional hours in Lowe's or Home depot trying to find what I need.
    I select from the best parts & manufacturers in the industry like Moog front end parts for my vehicles, Hunter Fans, Grundfos pumps, Dewalt tools and the like.

    Overhauling a washer for $25 using the same parts that would have cost $100 locally doesn't make sense. That $800 front brake job from Firestone that I turned down cost less than $150 using all new parts and doing it myself (don't try this at home if you don't handle tools).

    That Monroe repair shop that told my Son he needed an $1100 front ball joints replacement was a laugh since we had just put in Moog front end parts the month before ($35 per ball joint x 4). I bet they didn't look at the ball joints before coming up with that job quote.

    What's commonplace for the industry? You know better than I do, I've never paid for a geothermal install.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  8. Stevethomas

    Stevethomas New Member

    That's not what you stated. I buy parts and stuff too off of eBay but you specifically said you buy heat pumps for customers on eBay. I was just commenting on that statement.

    I'm new on this forum (and a newbie to the geo industry as a whole) so I don't want to make waves or a poor first impression. I just wanted to add my 2c that as a consumer I wouldn't be comfortable with a contractor doing that. I would want someone to have lots of experience working with a certain manufacturer and heat pump line-up that knows the specific set-up and maintenance issues for the unit they are proposing to me. And also not worrying whether the unit will have a full manufacturers warranty when something does go wrong as well. That was my point. I will stop now and go back to trying to learn my specific set-up.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  9. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    This is what I said.

  10. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Your 2nd response gave me a different impression of what you were trying to say.

    My Brother bought the Daikin Inverter powered variable speed compressor Unit on his own and installed it. He has the best Geothermal Heatpump in the industry for $8,000. A bit too pricy for me, but he did the installation himself, so he bought the best Unit.
  11. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    Ingrams doesn't sell it any longer, I hope he can get parts if he needs any.

    "Best in the industry" in your opinion.

  12. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Best in the industry in my opinion as well as best design for saving power, in my opinion.
  13. csementuh

    csementuh Member


    I finally completed my DSH setup (detailed here: )

    Now I can't quite tell how well it is working until I get some kind of datalogging setup in place.

    One day I took off the side panel to take a look. I insulated the exposed copper DSH lines inside (for better or worse). I was shocked they weren't already insulated like the rest of the compressor lines were.

    I let the system run for about 45 mins and measured the following temps at places:

    Where? Degrees F?

    Room Temp: 65
    Cold Water Before DSH Loop: 69,
    Compressor: 100
    DSH Unit: 140
    Cold Water Into DSH (Geo Exterior): 72
    Water Out Of DSH (Geo Exterior): 74
    Internal Water Pipe Close to DSH Unit: 80
    Finish Tank Inlet: 70
    Hot Water Recirculation Return Line: 80

    Does that seem right to you? Geo unit was commanding a Heat 1 stage, and the DSH only raised output temp a degree or two. Am I expecting miracles by thinking it would do more? :)
  14. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    Look at the schematic for the Desuperheater Pump control to determine how the Inlet & Outlet Bimetalic Temperature Switches are set up.
    It sounds like your Pump is not running. I found the Outlet Bimetallic on my Trane designed as a Normally Open switch keeping the pump from running until the line heated up to 145 degrees.

    I noticed my Carrier Unit used 2 Normally Closed Bimetallic switches allowing the Desuperheater Pump to start when the Compressor Contactor/Relay energized. Having the DH Pump run until the outlet or inlet switch temperature is high reaching the Open setpoint is a better design than the Trane had. The Trane Outlet Bimetal Switch needs to be changed out for a Normally Closed Bimetal Switch. I bypassed the outlet High Temperature Bimetallic switch for the Summer and Outlet water temperature wasn't an issue. I'll replace the current switch for a Normally Closed switch before the Cooling Season.

    You could have the same problem, so check that your pump is running when the compressor starts.

    Both of my Geothermal Units have both heat exchangers competly covered in black foam insulation, but the inlet & outlet lines have been left as un-insulated copper tubing.
  15. csementuh

    csementuh Member

    Thanks for the input! I'll have to find some time to really look at it more. I would think and hope that a system wouldn't be broken or poorly integrated out of the box, but who knows.

    I did feel the pump vibrate some, but it is hard to say since the compressor itself makes such a vibration it could have just been that.

    When the house was under construction, the idiots there had the DSH switch turned ON with nothing hooked up for days straight, so I hope they didn't burn the pump up. The manuals say to not turn it on until primed with water!

    I'm not 100% sure how to tell if the pump is running. I can put a meter on the power, but that only shows if power is getting there, which doesn't prove the impeller is spinning.

    I guess I can just wait until the heat is running hard soon with the cold weather and see how it reacts in temp then.
  16. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

    My Trane manual and the spec sheet that came with one of my Loop Grundfos pumps, warn not to run a Grundfos Pump without being filled with water and vented. The pump impeller and bearing are water cooled.

    The good news is that if your pump is bad, you can buy another Grundfos pump of the same model number and remove 4 Allen head bolts and replace only the motor and impeller without cutting the original pump volute out of the system. Take a look at a similar pump in this Grundfos literature and you'll see the 4 bolts.

    You can remove the cover on the end of canned rotor motor with a screw driver and turn the shaft with a screwdriver to see if it is seized, plus look for water to run out showing the pump impeller is full of water.

    Good luck with your DS PUMP CS
  17. csementuh

    csementuh Member

    Thanks for the advice! I haven't had time to mess with the geo system lately, but hopefully soon.

    If I feel the lines, I do feel a little difference. I'm working on a temp monitoring system now/soon, so hopefully I'll have some hard data after bit.
  18. mrrxtech

    mrrxtech Member

  19. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Attempting to measure differential temperatures with multiple thermometers is a rookie mistake - it introduces differences between each instrument into the delta T calculation, rendering it suspect.

    The cheesy 1" analog needle thermometers WrecksTech linked above are particularly inappropriate. They are not inexpensive; they are cheap.

    Any of several Cooper Atkins reduced tip digital thermometers (also available inexpensively on E-Bay) are more accurate and repeatable for geothermal delta T measurements and, as a bonus, the reduced tips fit well into the PT ports found on systems properly installed by licensed contractors.

    If you must measure fluid temperatures via pipe surface temperature readings pick a spot near a bend for turbulence / even temperature distribution, tape the thermometer tip to the pipe using metal foil tape and temporarily insulate the junction with foam or even a folded cloth to minimize ambient air temperature error effect upon the reading.

    WrecksTech, bless his heart, often dangerously oversimplifies in his quest to prove we contractors are nothing but rip-off artists.

    PS - specifically to desuperheater water temperature measurements - take temperature readings well away from circulating pump - pumps run hot and may introduce error, sometimes to the point where heat conducted along the tube wall from the pump convinces the unwary that the system is working well / heating water, when in fact the pump is running dry, doing nothing while quickly dying.
  20. csementuh

    csementuh Member

    I had time to play with a temp monitoring system and get some hard data!

    I still have the weird issue with hot water at our master shower is hit or miss. Either hot enough that you have to turn it down, or not quite hot enough for my wife. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason that that. I also have never plugged in my circulation pump, as the water circulates on its own and I get HW fast to faucets!

    On a positive note, I do think my desuperheater is working well, as the in and out temps going into my buffer tank are in the 100-120 region, which seems great! Also, after a shower, the system seems to recover the heat pretty fast, despite dropping to 50* water during the shower. The delta T of the DSH system is quite low, just a couple degrees at most, but it seems to be doing something overall, as I can't image the 110* water comes from thin air, (unless my finish tank is somehow sending it backwards?). If you notice the two big dips down to cold, that was two morning showers at 7:05AM and 730AM that brought in a flood of cold water. It does look like the temp recovered pretty decently! Can we safely say I have a working DSH lol?


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