How many tons can this support?

Radiant is into the buffer ... not the geo... one thing that is wrong according to the climate master install .. is the geo cir pump is the out line when it is suppose to be in the in line... can I ask what dif that would make and why?

 

Ok

That's ok. I've seen and used both. One may just be easier to ensure no air in line (lower one).

 

Can you post some drawings of your piping? If might help pinpoint problems.
I use Microsoft's PAINT to draw my stuff...

Bergy

 

Since you've already spent a fortune in geo, and don't trust your installer. Maybe you should have another installer come and look over the install and run some testing. It can save you a lot on your next bills if they find something wrong.

 

Bergy,



I do not think there is any use in trying to figure out what is wrong .. as I said the buffer/holding tanks are this week or next all being ripped out along with all related tubing... I will be left with the two units .. my underslab manifolds.. and the field pipes coming into the house.. starting all over .. more $$$$$

I found a guy north of me .. had him come in a give his opinion.. wish I knew this guy or found him from the start.. he is the one that said he would have to start from scratch... so the original guys are going to come back and try again.. not the best situation but I have held some money back so I am caught right now.. and would rather deal with this outside the court system because no wins but the lawyers .. I have never not paid a bill I have owed in my life but I have never been caught like this either ..

The guy north of me wanted to bring in a Geo engineer that I guess sit on some BC geo board.. they wanted to use my situation and system I guess as the poster boy.. how not to install a system. and I guess use this as to why there should be some more regulations put in so just not everyone and their dog can install a Geo system... it does not help anyone in the Geo industry a mess like this ..

I asked him how come I never heard of him.. he has been doing it for 20 plus years I guess.. his comment is I do not seem to have to advertise as I have enough work going and fixing every ones problems .. we mutually knew one company .. one that did a quote for me .. and even though I knew nothing back 4 plus years ago I knew they knew nothing and they were also cheaper but my gut told me no.. and yet I still got caught... as I said my driller is gone .. but these other guys are still around and still making a mess.. which keeps the guy that came in to my place employed..

So Bergy I really appreciate you taking the time to post and try help .. but I am stuck with my current 6 holes I cannot add anymore now so I am hoping we can get it working as best as possible then I will figure out how to supplement the whole system... will be something with NG I am thinking.. just do not know the best way right now.. just need to at the very min try get a proper header tank and and proper size tube coming in and out of the units .. my gut is telling me I am still short one hole but we will see after what is suppose to be installed correctly is in fact done so.

Maybe I can post some photo's after the re-do and you guys can comment .. ??

But still having a hard time understanding why right now anyone that has access to cheap NG would go with Geo.. I guess if you have to pay for heating oil like I see now in the USA then I guess having a power bill is better than a heat oil bill.. But right now a high energy efficient NG furnace is way cheaper and it works.. seems from what I have seen and researched and I maybe 100% wrong but if you are putting a high end heating system in and or a high end Geo system in the difference in cost seems to be about $15,000 grand and that is mostly due to drilling. So you pay the extra and then when a cold snap hits your strip kicks in and then you pay extra hydro? On a NG system when the cold snap hits you pay extra NG which is way cheaper than hydro?



BP

 

The reason

NG efficiency 95%
Geo: 350%

So electricity would have to be 3.5x the cost of NG to be equal in operating costs. It isn't. That is why folks go geo.

P.S. The company I'm thinking you may have had issues with, also may sit on that BC geo board.

edit - Electrical 100%

 

I have seen more problem installs that I would prefer to admit and I have yet to see an install that had to be torn completely out and re-done. I urge you pay a firm/designer of urthbuoy's caliber to spend a few hours evaluating the system before you do the tear out. An informed decision is priceless.

 

BP,

Any system, be it a furnace, boiler or Geo, is only as good as the design and install. Adding radiant complicates things even more. I have re-worked furnace, boiler and Geo installs because of shoddy work. Remember, Geo is NOT the problem...

Good luck

Bergy

 

Torn out

I do know I've been on sites I've liked to have torn out the installation but never had.

I find the key is the difference between optimization vs. functional. I find some systems are perfectly functional with some "relatively" minor changes. They may not be optimized (too much head loss in plumbing, inefficient pumps). Even ones that just mysteriously work on parallel circuits with no flow control. They work. Could they be optimized better? Yes.

Lots of things pop up like the electric element set to 100F while the geo is set to 90F. Or zones are fighting each other in cooling/heating calls.

 

====================================
It may not be on paper... but I did some real world testing with my messed up system.. which drove my wife nuts .. like no power on anywhere for anything for 1 hour and up to 4-5 hours tests.. and with my commercial NG heater in the middle of my fireplace it would be cheaper to shut down the geo and just heat with it.. sounds nuts I know...

I had one hour test use 10 KWH !!!


date reading time hours use per hour

27936 905 1 6 6
27936 915 0 0 #DIV/0!
27941 1015 1 5 5.00
27951 1115 1 10 10.00
some cold days and still using NG


10th 29639 PM 600 25 107 4.28 12th 29915 PM 500 47 276 5.87 16th 30599 pm 700 98 684 6.98 18th 30911 Pm 300 44 312 7.09 19th 31127 pm 700 28 216 7.71 20th 31285 PM 500 22 158 7.18 21th 31409 pm 700 26 124 4.77
Using more NG but also warmer amb. tanks god..


3rd 35347 am930 65 225 3.46 6th 35544 pm400 54.5 197 3.61 7th 35606 pm600 26 62 2.38 8th 35668 pm600 24 62 2.58 9th 35727 pm700 25 59 2.36 10th 35767 am1000 15 40 2.67
==================

for me right now power kills the so called Geo eff.

 

===================
Yes that is why I had two review it .. both said start over .. thought maybe first guy was looking for work .. but when second guy said the same .. I unfortunately had my answer ..

 

Can I get some answers or comments on the following if you guys have time..

1. What is the average or optimum GPM flow rate for a field like mine.
2. What is the average or optimum Pressure for the a field like mine.
3. What would be the min no go temp from the field ..meaning if the fields is not cycling correctly or used to much the the GSW is useless ..
4. What is the average or optimum GPM for under slab heating
5. What is the average or optimum Pressure for under slab heating
6. What is the average or optimum temp that should be used to heat the underslab heating
7. What is the average or optimum air temp that should be coming out of a short run duct ?

Thanks

 

Inserted

I'm going to be a bit brief on replies as this is starting to get in to "how to design" and isn't a quick topic.

1. What is the average or optimum GPM flow rate for a field like mine.
   
   3/4" Pipe Max=4.5gpm, Min=1.1gpm
   1" Pipe Max=8gpm. Min=1.3gpm
   
   But that completely changes with different temperatures and different antifreeze %'s. Your units themselves will dictate the flow they require. Your loop is supposed to be designed to accommodate this.
   
2. What is the average or optimum Pressure for the a field like mine.
   
   No pressure needed really. Or minimum positive pressure to prevent pipe cavitation. There are non-pressurized systems. The units only care about flow, not pressure.
   
3. What would be the min no go temp from the field ..meaning if the fields is not cycling correctly or used to much the the GSW is useless ..
   
   I think an entering water temperature of around 25F is the minimum for extended range heat pumps. I haven't looked up the spec's of your units specifically. 30F EWT is usually the design number folks hover around.
   
4. What is the average or optimum GPM for under slab heating
   
   For radiant, the deltaT is more important than the GPM. This can change, but a round number of 10F difference between out and in is a good start. The GPM should be such that it gives this.
   
5. What is the average or optimum Pressure for under slab heating
   
   Something positive to keep air eliminated. Doesn't have to be any more than 10psi for example but I've seen higher. Often hooked to domestic makeup water with a reducing valve of 25psi for example.
   
6. What is the average or optimum temp that should be used to heat the underslab heating
   
   The radiant should be hooked to outdoor reset. Allowing the tank temperature to adjust to outdoor air temperatures. Cooler in spring/fall. Hotter in winter. So a range of 85F-120F for example. If you had to pick one, pick 100F and go from there. But now you're hoping your radiant system piping was installed to heat your house based on these design temperatures.
   
7. What is the average or optimum air temp that should be coming out of a short run duct ?

Depends on the incoming air temperature (and to a lesser extent the entering water temperature). Your unit specifications will show you what they should be. If it comes in at 70F it might leave at 90F for example.
Thanks [/QUOTE]

 

[/QUOTE]

Yes all this should have been done .. maybe it was by the driller who is now gone.. but I am stuck with the field I have so just trying to back engineer as best as I can... I am pretty sure 1/2 of this was not thought about .. but I am only guessing..

what would you charge for a road trip to Vernon .. LOL

 

Schedule

We are actually setting up a morning visit with Tekmar Controls in Vernon. Hoping around the 20th of this month. Don't know if that fits your schedule, but we could swing by after our meeting and look at your house? The bonus is I'll have two journeymen plumbers with me that I use for our radiant installs. You can pick our brains.

The costs: buy us a coffee.

If you want to take us up on this, just send me a direct e-mail through this forum or through my website.

Cheers
Chris

 

Chris no matter if it is in the scd or not if you would like to come and see the house and install I would buy you all coffee.. and maybe even TH tid bits if thats what it would take.. :>) .. no idea where we will be with the rip out and re-do but no matter .. will be interesting to see if the new USA owners of tekmar keep the thing in Canada or not.. will contact you off line on the visit

 

Yes I think they put something in that coffee ..keeps you wanting more...

Question for someone..

When one has just an NG forced air system it is easy to turn it down or have your programmable stat take care of it.. either when no one is at the house during the day .. or at night. Now can do the same thing of course with forced air geo .. but what is the common thinking behind under slab/radiant heating.. as the recovery time is slow .. especially in an application like mine where I have a 7" thick concrete floor.

There must be some correlation where the dropping of the stat temp over night cross's the point where the recovery in the AM doesn't justify the amount of the degree temp drop?

 

Mitsubshi

Well I was over at my buddies place.. who is doing a major Reno on his whole house.. part of the Reno is updating the whole heating system etc etc.. he was going to go Geo.. even put the ground loop in.. after watching me and doing some of his own research .. he opted for the Mitsubishi R410A Mr slim..no geo.. his furthest duct run he is getting 103F vent temp and nearest he is getting 120F...he put his whole system in for what I paid for drilling .. and I get 82F at the nearest.. .. ahhhh .. now after construction is done I am really interested in finding out what is power bill is going to be.. this new Mits . is suppose to be good to minus 30 now..