Hot water?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by IsItForMe, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    Hello all,

    I'm currently evaluating a geo proposal to include a WF 7 for heating and cooling, + a dedicated heat pump for domestic hot water. Currently I have a natural gas boiler and wate heater, both of which are 22 years old and we fear are about to break on us at the wrong time.

    We very much want to go the geo route for environmental and $ savings purposes.

    I'm awaiting natural gas usage data from the past several years and plan to compare that to estimated geo costs. I'm thinking that it will be a win for the geo system.

    As far as hot water goes, will a dedicated WF series 5 geo heat pump + passive storage tank be cost effective when compared to tankless natural gas heaters? I know that questions approaching this one have been asked here in the past, but I can't dig up a direct comparison.

    I'm in Western NY.

    Thanks for your input!
  2. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    The separate water to water is definitely the "cat's meow set up" my question is, Do you have a large enough utility room to put a heat pump hot water heater? That water tank as the finishing tank, with the storage tank and Desuperheater on the 7 Series is probably less up front cost, smaller heat pump making the DHW.
  3. nc73

    nc73 Member Forum Leader

    Stick to natural gas. Geo only really makes sense if you don't have cheap natural gas. Not to mention cheaper install cost.
  4. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What you are describing is the GroundUp package.
    7 series variable speed, dedicated water-water heat pump for domestic hot water, 80 or 120 gallon tank.

    Certainly the most efficient system money can buy. And it is kind where we too see the future going. Is it cost effective?

    It depends on your definition of cost effective. How much is the alternative? The point is that the infrastructure is already in place (flow center, piping, loopfield etc), and to add a dedicated hot water heat pump is adding to the upfront cost, but it cuts out the dual tank setup, and the desuperheater.

    Here is one of our GroundUp systems, making the domestic hot water for $6 last month (October). How much water did they use? I don't know. All I know that it is a 4 person household. Thus far it is utterly impressive how efficient they are.

    Let me know if I can help with questions. You can also PM me.

    Attached Files:

  5. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    Thanks to you both for your feedback.

    Chris - I've got plenty of space to hold whatever gear is needed. The basement is wide open.

    nc73 - The install cost for this entire system of heating, cooling and hot water is relatively close to a 100% natural gas solution. The capital $ are where they need to be financially, it's really the ongoing operating cost that I am more concerned with.

    My homework here is centered around the operating costs of this 100% geo solution.

    I would appreciate additional feedback.
  6. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    Looks like 50% of my customers lost their senses, since they are on natural gas and they are putting geo in.

    And all those gas utilities who now start to pay for putting geothermal in.

    And 100% of the builders we work with, who have made geo standard in all their new builds, despite having access to natural gas.

    They all lost their senses...???
  7. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Not sure if I am following you. Up front $ are pretty much the same, but you question wether geo is more cost effective to operate versus gas for hot water?
  8. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    Correct - I had replied before I saw your screenshot. I'm doing my homework to make sure that my electrical costs are not going to exceed what I am paying now for natural gas heating and hot water.
  9. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I checked the operational data of the W-W during their operation.

    Heat of Extraction BTU/H 38257
    Comp W 2050
    Load Pump W 23
    Pump W 190
    Total W 2263
    KW->BTUH 7721.36
    Capacity (A+F-(D*3.412)) 45330.08
    COP (G/F) 5.87

    Thus the efficiency was about 587%, versus probably 90% of an on demand gas heater. While gas is significantly cheaper than electricity as an energy unit, the significantly higher efficiency of the geo units make up for it.

    Keep in mind that w-w units are rated at 32F EWT (entering water temperature) from the loop field, but seasonal average is about 50F.
    Also on the load side, they are rated at 104F entering temperature into the heat pump, however the water being heated is between 50F and all 120F, thus much colder than rated conditions ON AVERAGE.

    Thus on a seasonal average, the W-W efficiency is significantly higher, contributing to the savings.
  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Just to explain why geo systems will be much cheaper to operate in the future as natural gas will be....

    The electric rate is not the same for each system, some portions of the electric rate are fixed and not volumetric, so the more electricity you use the average cost per kwh actually goes down. The utilities just made it volumetric in order to encourage savings, as ordered by the public service commission.

    NYS is introducing new, so-called beneficial electrification rates, meaning with the electrification of the transportation and the heating sector the overall price for electricity goes down, since much more is used, but the infrastructure costs are actually less.

    We expect the delivery actually to be cut in half.

    As a first step and as the first utility, Central Hudson has been ordered July 1st, 2018, to establish a so called rate impact credit, so they give every geo customer $264 back per year, which is an estimated 50% of their heating bill, until the new geothermal electric rate is established.

    Other utilities are currently following. National Grid is currently also restructuring the rate.

    One thing is certain, NYS has decided to monetize the benefits of geo systems to the grid, so they will give out both rebates and change the delivery rate for geo systems.

    "Heat pumps provide more efficient air conditioning and can reduce summer electricity peak, thereby providing benefits to all ratepayers. In addition, the increased winter electricity use of heat pumps results in customers paying more for fixed costs currently being recovered through their volumetric kWh delivery rates, resulting in a cost shift. These two factors mean heat pumps provide significant ratepayer/non-participant value. It is expected that cost-effectiveness in the residential sector, in particular, will significantly improve even with only partial provision of the value associated with summer peak reduction and cost shifting. Cost-effectiveness would also improve if the value of avoided GHG emissions was provided to heat pump customers. These values could be provided to heat pump customers through a variety of different mechanisms from incentives, to bill credits, and potentially optional rates such as National Grid is pursuing."

    Page 52 of the new NYS energy report.

    NYS has a mandate to reduce carbon emissions across all sectors by 80 % by 2050, which will essentially mean to replace fossil fuel in the transportation sector and the heating sector with electricity, since that is the only fuel which produces no emissions.

    They will establish a carbon tax to make gas more expensive, and they have completely stopped any gas expansion projects. The last one had been approved 4 years ago. The public service commission has not approved any gas expansions projects, and has ordered the utilities to find

    NYSEG and ConEd for example has now issued an RFPs to seek alternatives.

    So has ConEdison

    National Fuel is next. They are not doing this voluntarily, they have been ordered to do so by the public service commission. Essentially any new investment into any new gas infrastructure have not being approved, since it is being phased out.

    More people will be transferred over to renewables, so lesser customers pay for the gas infrastructure, which will significantly increase the price per cubic feet of gas, which will drive more people heat pump systems quicker. It is called the gas utility gas spiral.

    I was staying out of the business of predicting the future of gas and electric prices, but I think to assume that the gas prices will remain low for the next 20 years here is not realistic, considering the way published NYS public policy is phasing out gas and switching over to heat pumps.

    Thus telling someone here to stick with gas is really a very uninformed best.
    Deuce likes this.
  11. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    Folks - Thanks for the responses. The help is much appreciated.
  12. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member

    Docjenser - your NYSEG link is broken. Got an updated one?

  13. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

  14. IsItForMe

    IsItForMe New Member


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