Hot Geothermal loops!! Can we use our pool to cool??

Discussion in 'Swimming Pools and Hot Tubs' started by homemom, May 6, 2009.

  1. homemom

    homemom Member

    Regarding Law suite - It does present a few problems (even if I removed the emotional aspect.)
    We paid for 8 tons - we got 8 tons (function is a matter of opinion, it does cool to 80 degrees.) Any additional tonnage would have been an expense in the beginning... and first costs usually win out (based on competition.) So the additional tonnage costs would be subtracted from any award. Minus attorney fees -

    All in all, we would most likely just end up with the attorney fees.

    I think Dewayne is on target, "Planet Geothermal" is bankrupt (according to new a/c guy - paper work is being filed.) Dave is Bankrupt in money and ethics.

    All the verbal promises Dave made aren't worth the paper they were written on.... I'm just ready for the expenses (60000) to be over and enjoy my home. (No, I did not add an extra zero.)

    Note: That's why there is no pool. :evil:
     
  2. geome

    geome Member Forum Leader

    Well, yes and no on the 8 Tons. He was the "expert" that quoted you a "system" for the house that was to be capable of cooling the house to a reasonable air conditioned temperature (I don't believe 80 degrees to be reasonable). He incorrectly calculated the capacity to be 8 tons. You are not the expert and did not know an 8 ton geothermal system would be inadequate, but he should have known. I believe courts would see it that way. After all, you didn't ask him to quote and install a system with only half or 3/4 of the capacity you needed, right?

    Put another way, the price you paid was to be sufficient for a system capable of cooling your house adequately. If I were judging this case, and I have no expertise in this area, I would figure an award based on how much an appropriate system would have cost for your house, and subtract anything that was done with the current system that could be reused to offset the installation cost of a correctly sized system, and add any additional costs to redo or remove anything that was done that isn't correct and can't be reused. Don't know if pain and suffering and punitive damages are appropriate. ;) Of course, there is no way of predicting what would happen in a suit.

    Anyway, if he is filing for bankruptcy and there are not enough assets to cover attorney fees and liabilities, your potential for recovery may be limited. That is why I mentioned his insurance. If for example, he had a $500,000 policy, and if your claim is covered, then you may have some recovery. You may want to try finding out who his business and liability (may not be the same company) carrier was at the time of your installation and contact them directly to file a claim. I believe you can do this yourself. If you cannot obtain this information yourself, then an attorney may be the only option left to find out this information.

    Not sure if any installers on this forum would be willing to share this information with you or not, but maybe they could tell you if their insurance policy covers this kind of mistake. Knowing this might give you some hope for a claim that you might make against the installer of your system and his insurance carrier.

    Maybe for a username you should have picked hotmom. :lol:
     
  3. homemom

    homemom Member

    GOOD ONE!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Thanks for the post!

    Hotmom it is!
     
  4. geome

    geome Member Forum Leader

    I might try your idea of getting our indoor temperature up to 80 to get rid of my mother-in-law sooner. :cool: If my wife is on the ball she'd probably ask me why I'm running the heat in August. :roll: Guess I could make this "mistake" just once. But... turning off the circuit breaker might work a few years later. :p
     
  5. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Before suit you want to determine cost of repairs. Home(hot)mom still has to fix the problem first. Fact that the guy is picking up his own parts suggests limited resources.
    I think HM's blood pressure is best served by moving on. Especially if fix is just a few more loops (which is not out of the question).
    Dewayne is a pro. I'll look forward to his assessment.
    J
     
  6. geome

    geome Member Forum Leader

    I agree that before suit that determining the cost of repairs would be a good idea. Not so sure about the idea of fixing the problem before a suit. If the defense requests an independent evaluation (maybe from someone that wouldn't do the repair) it would be too late if the problem was already fixed. An attorney would need to answer the question as to how best to proceed.

    With the money involved for a good repair, I'd consider speaking to an attorney first (possibly for a free consultation). Even paying an attorney $200 to $500 (maybe for 1 or 2 hours of work) for some good advise would be worth it to me. The attorney should know if the insurance company idea has any merit.

    Need to take it one step at a time to find out if this could pan out, and stop if it reached a dead end and not throw good money after bad.
     
  7. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Most contractors carry liability insurance. Very few carry errors and omission insurance.

    The guy is out of business. There is little hope of getting any thing out of him or is insurance.

    The homeowner wants to let it go.

    You guys should as well
     
  8. geome

    geome Member Forum Leader

    Obviously it's her decision to go forward or not. Chances of recovery may be limited, but to say there is little hope without contacting a legal expert might keep a person from properly investigating this to find out for sure. We're not talking nickles and dimes here.

    Since we're asking questions about the experience and knowledge of others, (as you did with jonr in the "Clips for U-Loop" thread): Have you seen this installers official bankruptcy filing or notice? His personal bankruptcy filing or notice? Do you know specifically what his business and personal assets are and what specifically his liabilities are? What type of business entity did he operate under, (C-corp, S-corp, LLC, Sole Proprietor, Partnership, etc.)? What expertise do you have in this legal area? My intent here is to simply to point out that there may be more going on legally than people have mentioned. If I need expert geothermal advise, I come here for information. If I need expert legal advise, I contact an attorney to find out where I stand.

    I'm not claiming to know these answers, but I know to suggest getting expert legal advise when I don't have it to offer myself. I do have CFO background and have worked with attorneys more than I would have cared to in the past. :lol:
     
  9. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    Unlike jonr, I will respond to you.

    I personally know the officer who served the bankruptcy papers on this guy. I have heard of numerous other people that he has scammed. I know the contractors who go in and fix his messes.

    In my 35 years of being in the construction business, I have seen people go to lawyers and court trying to get money from an unscrupulous contractor. I can't think of a time that any them were glad they did.

    I know that if hotmom goes to an attorney, she will have to pay if she gets help or not.

    Sorry if I offended you, didn't mean to. You were offering your opinion, I was offering mine.

    Below is how I feel about lawyers:





    THE MADAM OPENED THE BROTHEL DOOR IN NEVADA AND SAW A RATHER DIGNIFIED,

    WELL-DRESSED, GOOD-LOOKING MAN IN HIS LATE FORTIES OR EARLY FIFTIES.

    'MAY I HELP YOU SIR?' SHE ASKED

    'I WOULD LIKE TO SEE VALERIE,' THE MAN REPLIED.


    'SIR, VALERIE IS ONE OF OUR MOST EXPENSIVE LADIES. PERHAPS YOU WOULD

    PREFER SOMEONE ELSE', SAID THE MADAM.


    'NO, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE VALERIE,' HE REPLIED.

    JUST THEN, VALERIE APPEARED AND ANNOUNCED TO THE MAN SHE CHARGED $5000

    A VISIT. WITHOUT HESITATION, THE MAN PULLED OUT FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS

    AND GAVE IT TO VALERIE, AND THEY WENT UPSTAIRS. AFTER AN HOUR, THE MAN

    CALMLY LEFT.


    THE NEXT NIGHT, THE MAN APPEARED AGAIN, ONCE MORE DEMANDING TO SEE

    VALERIE. VALERIE EXPLAINED THAT NO ONE HAD EVER COME BACK TWO NIGHTS

    IN A ROW AS SHE WAS TOO EXPENSIVE.. BUT THERE WERE NO DISCOUNTS. THE PRICE

    WAS STILL $5000. AGAIN, THE MAN PULLED OUT THE MONEY, GAVE IT TO

    VALERIE, AND THEY WENT UPSTAIRS. AFTER AN HOUR, HE LEFT.


    THE FOLLOWING NIGHT THE MAN WAS THERE YET AGAIN. EVERYONE WAS

    ASTOUNDED THAT HE HAD COME FOR A THIRD CONSECUTIVE NIGHT, BUT HE PAID

    VALERIE AND THEY WENT UPSTAIRS.

    AFTER THEIR SESSION, VALERIE QUESTIONED THE MAN, 'NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN

    WITH ME THREE NIGHTS IN A ROW. WHERE ARE YOU FROM?' SHE ASKED. THE MAN

    REPLIED, 'IOWA .'

    'REALLY', SHE SAID.. 'I HAVE FAMILY IN IOWA .'

    'I KNOW.' THE MAN SAID. 'YOUR SISTER DIED, AND I AM HER ATTORNEY. SHE ASKED ME TO GIVE YOU YOUR $15,000 INHERITANCE. '

    THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS THAT THREE THINGS IN LIFE ARE CERTAIN.

    1. DEATH



    2. TAXES, AND



    3. BEING SCREWED BY A LAWYER
     
  10. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Most folks who have contracted for decades know that when suits are involved attorneys often are the only winners. Screwed homeowners almost never win, unless they have the resources to pay for the satisfaction of a judgement they'll never collect. Further as I suggested before, HM still needs her problem fixed, legal fees may be > repair cost.
    Now;
    A better analogy for your question about Jonr would be if Dewayne and I went to a legal advice website and started offering suggestions to folks who needed the help of an attorney. If something we read disagreed with an attorney's advice we would argue the point because our limited research suggested otherwise.
    With 0 experience Jonr offers design advice and argues with folks that have been in the business for decades.

    You have never presented your self as an expert, Geome.
    You ask questions, offer your experiences and qualify your answers. You are a perfect example that one does not have to be an expert to contribute here.

    Homemom,
    I look forward to your consult with Dewayne if he can get down there. We need more data, but I'm not convinced that you can't solve your problem with a few extra ground loops.
    Good luck,
    J
     
  11. geome

    geome Member Forum Leader

    I like your story. :lol:

    I'm not offended. Sorry if I came across that way. Actually my opinion is similar to yours regarding lawyers, but sometimes they are a necessary evil (due to our legal system) to find out where a person stands. I can say from experience that I have never seen a company come forward and volunteer to give money back, or volunteer that their insurance company might pay, or say "sure, I'll sell my company or personal assets to make things right", etc. This is a case of "the squeaky wheel might get some oil." Do you know if the bankruptcy filing was for the company or personal or both?

    Hotmom, if there is a bankruptcy filing, I would find out the name of the Bankruptcy Trustee. Bankruptcy notices should be published and should be public information. It's my understanding that you can file a claim directly with the Trustee. If there are sufficient assets, you might get something, and you wouldn't need to lay out any money. I'm sure you are documenting everything, but just though I'd mention to keep all paperwork anyway.

    Joe, thanks for the nice words. I see you mentioned satisfaction of judgment. Not sure if this can be done in Hotmom's area, but we have had courts approve wage garnishments in the past to satisfy a debt. If personally liable, in about 20 to 40 years this could be repaid. :D
     
  12. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    TOO FUNNY!!!

    Palace,

    That was HILARIOUS!! :D :) :p :cool: :lol: :lol: Thanks for a GREAT Friday laugh.

    Bergy
     
  13. Sounds like the best way to solve your problem is with a small evaporative cooling tower. No need to buy a new 5 ton system. Cooling tower is 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of AC system, and you'll still get the energy savings of the geothermal. Tower is thermostatic, and will only run when it has too to help out. Size is about 4'x4'x4' cube. Pool can help out too, but piping is a little problematic, and your pool will run hot in the summer.

    Mark Allied Air Texas
    www.alliedairtexas.com
     
  14. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I am sorry I did not

    think of a cooling tower. One could work around the evaporative water loss.
     
  15. moondawg

    moondawg Member

    Let me start by saying I'm not an expert. And let me throw this out there for others to shoot down.

    A "creative" evaporative solution.

    Do you have an irrigation system?
    What about hooking a storage tank up to the Desuperheater,and using the hot water for your irrigation. (you'd likely have to "mix it down" with some cooler water, I'm guessing, to keep from scalding your grass/flowers)

    This moves heat out of your house (and spreads it on TOP of your yard instead of putting it in your loops)

    Now your evap water serves dual-purpose (it waters your lawn AND cools your house)

    The plumbing would be fairly simple, but it would require the space for a larger storage tank.

    Just a crazy idea I had while falling asleep the other night.

    Ryan
     
  16. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    MD

    The desuper only skims off about 10% of total unit capacity, so taking heat from it via an open loop (essentially what you are proposing) has merit but is likely insufficient to get the job done.
     
  17. geome

    geome Member Forum Leader

    I'm not an expert either... What if MD's idea was modified slightly to provide this water over the existing loops (like a soaker hose to assist in loop heat transfer that I periodically see mentioned on the forum)?
     
  18. moondawg

    moondawg Member

    Depends on if the water was warmer than the loops, or colder than the loops, by the time it gets to the loops!

    If cooler, then yes!

    If warmer, no.
     
  19. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The existing loops are in vertical bore holes.
    A soaker hose will do nothing.
     
  20. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I like the cooling tower or swamp cooler ideas, but I'd want to know all the design details so that I knew how many BTU's I needed to make up. Without full load and knowledge of existing set-up, we're guessing. Homemom already has a guess work system.

    j
     

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