Hot Geothermal loops!! Can we use our pool to cool??

Discussion in 'Swimming Pools and Hot Tubs' started by homemom, May 6, 2009.

  1. homemom

    homemom Member

    You guys are amazing... THANK YOU !!

    Today is a tough day for me...need to take care of grandmother 96 years young!!

    I'll check in later tonight and answer any questions listed...pipe size..etc.

    Note: loop pipes go from front yard through 2ft floor trusses to the back of the house. In one of the last pics (under the 2 units near the floor) is where the loop pipes connect to more tubing - pump-units. This is the only way I know to access the actual loop line besides digging up the front.

    Hopefully we can fix or even improve the flow and temps by re-plumbing again. THANKS!!
     
  2. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    No digging allowed,

    until we know for sure.

    jonr is good and Bergy and I do this for a living, as do a host of folks that are following your thread.

    I know there is some urgency to get the system so it will cool given your location, but it is not yet life threatening.

    Get back when you can, I understand as Stephanie and I are caregivers for my Mother. I will fight it out with the pros while I finish my novelette.
     
  3. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    BERGY, hey, BERGY

    Your logged on.

    I see the leaks at the flow center, tell me again why it is upside down and why it may matter.
     
  4. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Mark

    I don't believe there is any "real" difference in the way it's mounted, as long as the impeller shaft is horizontal. The flow center's name will be upside down. I think of it being "normal" because the hose kit is hooked to the bottom ports and they go to the heat pump.

    Bergy
     
  5. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I just ate a buffalo burger,

    so my mind is not on pumping.

    I may write more tonight, but do not bet the farm on it.

    I came hard wired 60 years ago for electrons and BTUH. I am sure if Homemom's loops will work then we can get her 8 tons of cooling.

    If I am wrong what did I cost her but a bit of time.

    My guess is if we control the needs of each machine to only see loop water when calling, we will be able to meet her needs for cooling. I wish I had cooling load software and could plug in Nevada. In Cleveland cooling is easy.

    All of that said, the piping to and from the units is not correct.

    If the loops, or when the loops are airless and pumping we need to look at what the "ZONED" units need for flow.

    I would take bergys design and add one pump. The pump would be able to push all the air free water out to the longest loop and back to the pump. That is the primary loop pump and that is all it has to do. Out to the end and back again. Round and round, giving up or collecting heat. Round and round, transferring BTUH. Heat goes to cold is the rule, but we need a way to get the transfer to happen and that is, in a hydronics system or an air system, called FLOW.

    Now we have a true geothermal system. We pump water, the transport guy out to the loop field. The loop field stays steady and heat goes to cold. So in heating we bring back heat to the heat pump and in cooling we bring back cool to the heat pump.

    The heatpump, or geo heat pump, backwards a/c, what ever one wants to call it is just an amplifier. It takes one dollar of electricity and gives up four dollars of heat, by amplification, using a refrigerant and it's change of state to make that happen.

    Lost Yet?
     
  6. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We can not move

    1 1/4" of water through a lesser hose, upside down or not.

    Do you have a system sizer?

    Was a free down load from B&G. I have the slide rule on the round copy. Thanks to Gil Carlson.

    I hear that Gil ran the numbers based on a 20% blockage. No wonder it always works. Do not forget plastic was yet to come, and it is slippery.
     
  7. geo fan

    geo fan Member Forum Leader

    I cant see I CANT SEE
    THE SCIENCE HURTS MY EYES

    this doesnt address the ground getting to hot to act as an effeceint heat sink later in the season, unless your air bound ( which I beleive is the issue ) in short fix it but dont get your hopes up , there still might be a window unit in your future untill you can save some $$ to add pipe / upsize the unit/ lower load
     
  8. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    My eyes are blinded,

    but not by the light.

    The ground may not transffer heat.

    The loops may be short.

    The polar ice may not be melting and the vortex in the Pacific Ocean is just junk plugging up the drain with plastic.

    Please wonder back to see what the question was, is it possible to cool my loops with a swimming pool.

    So now what dig up the yard and driveway without testing?
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What does she need for a good purge? Around 32GPM?

    Maybe a purge in both directions?
     
  10. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    My feet are not on the job.

    Thanks joe.

    Jonr. I am clueless. I use a self priming pool pumg at about 2 HP, but I bushed it down from 1 1/4" in and 1 1/2" out to 3/4 by 3/4", I have no idea what the head max is. It does get pumping and moves out the air.
     
  11. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Purging, Jonr I do not know

    I am not an engineer, I am a journalist by training.

    I just get this stuff. So I started doing it for a living. I found that it is not that difficult. I know it is easier to move heat with water than air.

    I have chores to do in the am, but I will type more about FLOW and this system.
     
  12. homemom

    homemom Member

    Loop specs

    You guys talk more than women!! ;)

    Ok, I'm back here's what I could find I'll do this in order:

    Loop field: 1 1/4 inch (hard black tube-not easily bent) goes to Geo room. *other numbers on tube, if you need them*

    Connector hose to pump: 1" sureline (25.4mm) 150psi Goodyear

    Pump: no brand just phone number 866-364-9460

    Copper to units: N2-GAS 1- 1/8 00 (Outside diameter is 3 5/8) **These numbers were hard to read... there were others also**

    Metal "joint"": says Texas FairFax They have a websitehttp://www.texasfairfax.com/index.html
    Toll Free (800)769-9488
    "service@texasfairfax.com"

    Anything else I can do?? I have pics of the model & specs posted on the units if you want them let me know.

    Last year the loops shut down around August when the loop field became saturated. We have time...No rush....Take care of your family and business first..... I appreciate anything you can do, in your time frame.

    (note:Grandfather may pass soon 98yrs, if I disappear for awhile, I'll be back)

    Yes, I know we will most likely need to add the 4 or 5 tons. One problem at a time - If we fix this, it will help us design the conventional correctly.
     
  13. Howard Ek

    Howard Ek Member

  14. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Who's gonna re plumb this thing?

    I like the plan so far, but we really need to recruit the local guy who will have to participate unless the author has a flush cart.
     
  15. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    HomeMom

    I am sorry to hear about your Grandfather. He, and you, will be in my prayers.

    Bergy
     
  16. homemom

    homemom Member

    Couple of ideas on who could do this....

    There's a guy up North near Salt Lake who I've talked to who does Geo. Nice Guy

    If we talk to Climate Master and they agree the plumbing is not great, I can call the "Good" Geo contractor and tell him the piping needs to be redone per manufactures recommendations to improve performance. - He does have a good rep in town. (He may not be aware of the EXACT plumbing done-He's the ducting pro-....It was a tech who did it.)

    The "Bad" Geo has a son who now works for the city doing GeoThermal, (He's the one who found there was no freon in the system the first summer) *OK, He's also the one who plumbed the units in series-first time.

    Marc "has tools, will travel" ;)

    (Thanks Bergy -- My Gma passed a few years ago so I always think.. He has a beautiful wife on the other side waiting for him... He used to say when Gma would walk into the room "Isn't she the most beautiful woman, aren't I the luckiest man.)
     
  17. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Couple guys in Utah come to mind but I don't know their proximity to you.
    Palace geo is one and tuffluck driller the other they have both contributed here and green building talk. Both are extremely knowledgeable.

    (Your story about your Grandfather will have that Billy Dean song "Love Me" going through my head all day......"if you get there before I do, don't give up on me.......)
     
  18. Chuckak

    Chuckak New Member

    Homemom,

    I will be building a system in Cape Coral FL that will be using two heat exchangers for the closed loop. One exchanger will be using canal water and the other will be the swimming pool. The loop water does not get mixed with either "ground source" water. The pool will have a large solar array on the roof that we can routinely run at night to dump the summer heat. It only has to run a short time to reduce the pool temps so the added heat from the AC loads from the day time should be no problem. Several of the homes in the neighborhood have been using the swimming pool method for years and they do not have any other ground source - just the pool. The ones I saw were all Florida Heat Pump (FHP) systems.
    In your case just putting in a heat exchanger that is rated to deal with the chlorinated pool water and sized for your heat loads in series with your loop should do the trick.
    You will have to have the solar heating/cooling system automated to maintain the desired pool temps etc. The evaporation will increase as the temperature increases during each day the AC is on unless you keep it covered when not in use. (use a non heat gaining cover since you will have the solar panels)
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If you can't fix your loops, I would consider adding an air-cooled fluid cooler on the exit line going to the loops. It turns your system into a partial air source heat pump.
     
  20. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The rest of my story

    We now know this system may just work as the loop header is big enough to transport the BTUH needed for the machines. Taking the leap in faith required, the the loop installer had a few clues and knew what a reverse return is and how it worked, lets say the loop will handle the two machines.

    Now what? Lets think about what we want to happen. We want to move BTUH between the home and the loop field. We want that to happen at the least amount of electricity possible. We only want pumps running when the machines need to move BTUs.

    I would change the loop as noted in "How to fix this system" on page 6 of this thread. I would use a purge cart or my swimming pool pump to determine the total head pressure on the loop field. If you want to know how to do this let me know. Knowing the head loss and given the 3 GPM per ton need for flow through the two machines I would pick a pump by it's pump curve that can handle the head loss and still pump 24 GPH. I would not go any bigger as we will provide pumps for each of the machines individually like in Bergy's drawing.

    This pump would be installed so that it and the loop field become one big circle called the primary loop, think of a merry-go-round. We want the water to go out to the yard and come back to the pump. Round and round and round. Nature will take care of the rest with the first law of thermal dynamics, heat goes to cold. The BTHU guys are getting on and off the merry-go-round as required by law. Now what?

    We want the BTUH guys to visit the machines so we need to let them do that. Now we add a pair of closely spaced 'T's, sized to the needs of the machines, (they are not twins) to the primary loop. (If you really have to know why this will work, go buy, Primary and Secondary Pumping, from Dan Holohan at his web site, Heatinghelp.com.) We then pick the smallest pump possible for each of the machines. We need to pump them to the machines using check valves to control which way the secondary merry-go-round spins, the machines like it that way.

    I would have each machine turn on it's personal pump and the main pump. Nothing would run if the thermostats were happy. I would also add, probably in the primary loop all the hydronic bells and whistles; micro-bubbler air eliminator, a back flow preventer between the potable water and the system, a bladder type expansion tank, a makeup water and/or antifreeze system and not least with homemom's system with its high temperatures a pressure relief safety valve.
     

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