Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by troy, Apr 19, 2011.

  1. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I would never pimp you out soley for a six pack:D
    I'll let you know about Swanton job.
    BTW if you go to Comfortaire you are not far from Masoud and the unruly Climadry.
  2. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    A six pack of Jim Beam and gas coming and going might do the job.

    I thought you guys got that fixed. I would look for sure.

    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  3. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Fixed as far as I know, part came late in the season last year. Real test is this summer (if it ever arrives).
  4. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Summer arrival date?

    Folks in stick homes here have been running AC since late February.
  5. Masoud

    Masoud New Member

    RH up to 42% already. Heat will be on in this stick house, for a while. 34˚ is predicted for tomorrow night around Jackson, MI.


  6. troy

    troy New Member

    Troy h

    Okay I'm back and I'm sure some will say "great". I had a pretty rough week and couldn't wait to get back and run each unit independently with almost everything off in the house. I left all vampire appliance plugged in but off. The only thing running was my computer which runs my ted. I had to leave a couple of cfl lights on so I could see since it's a dark morning outside . So my base kw usage was .580 which I removed from my usage when my units were running in first and second stages. Evrything almost exactly hit what the books said they should use in there respective modes except the main geo in heating mode. Heating mode for the main geo is as follows. 1st stage: 6.965, it should of been 2.38kw. 2ndstage 8.362kw and should of been 3.34kw. The 2.38kw and 3.34kw is including the two pumps which use .78 kw when both are running. Now I don't know what changed from the other day when it seemed like second stage was running correctly. But the numbers are correct. I had a neighbor who is a licensed electriian help me with all of this and made sure my TED was correct. My kw usage in aux mode was 8.429kw. So based on this it's my main geo that's using up all the power when it shouldn't be.
  7. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Almost sounds as though aux. is running with your 1st and second stages. Did you happen to test EAT/LAT at the same time?
    Again troubleshooting is the assembly of puzzle pcs. One by itself does not reveal the picture.
    This could be as simple as a poorly programmed thermostat.
  8. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree with Joe, but will mention again that I do not like the near heat pump piping because the split system unit is getting all of the loop field flow.

    What happens if you close the ball valve feeding the split. Re-testing might be worth a try.

  9. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Or thermostat not wired correctly. Check if the Aux comes on with a 2 degree differential.See if that fixes the high consumption. If not,
    Check what wire goes into "W" at the heatpump, disconnect the power, disconnect the wire going into "W" at the heatpump, turn the power back on, measure consumption again.
    Let us know.
  10. troy

    troy New Member

    troy h

    Boom! This is good. I think I know what it means but Ill let you all tell me. This morning I got up at 5am to do what Mark asked and turn the valve off for the split. I turned the split valve off and and my readings were as follows.In first stage the system ran for 3 minutes at 6.8 kw then dropped down 2.508 kw for two minutes eat was 71.7 lat was 92.8. then the system went to 2nd. stage and was running at 3.35 kw and was eat @ 72.3 and 99.3 lat. But then I turned the valve back on for the split and the kw went back up to 7.25kw and ran for almost 3 minute like this until aux kicked in and eat 72.5 and lat was 117.8. Mark I think you are right, but I still want to believe that these wells and header are very poorly done and wrong based on everything else they did and tried to get by with. It is in my opinion and ill try to do what ive done the past two mornings but with both units running at the same time this weekend. With both units running Ill bet youll see increased kw usage across the boarddue to lack of flow. Is there not some type of installation rule book that tells you when your well are 340ft away from your house and 42ft above in elevation from your units what size pipe needs to come into your house from your wells and how to split the flow up between a split unit and main unit?
  11. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I like to fix the easy stuff first


    Lets not dig up the yard yet.

    First thing I would do is check the control wiring as Doc and Joe mentioned. Once we are sure the wiring is correct and the thermostats have been properly programed, we test again. I tend not to change more than a single item at a time. Then we know what action caused the change.

    I would then change the near unit piping to include a check valve and a motorized zone valve for each unit. While I had the system open I would add a micro-bubbler air eliminator assembly. The zone valves would open with a call for heating or cooling. Doing that allows either unit to access the entire loop field individually.

    Only after I was sure the stuff inside the home was correct would I dig up the yard to see what they did up the hill.

    The transportation piping at 1 1/4" ID will transport 160,000 BTUH so it will handle the load. IF the system is full of water and ALL the water is out of the system the height of the loop field above the home does not have an impact on flow. The piping has a friction head loss of 4.2' per 100 feet of pipe and that will influance the amount of pumping required.

  12. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes, it is called a pressure drop calculation, everyone should do this to make sure the design ensure enough flow. Now, don't dig anything up, check the wiring first, and we can work on reconfiguring the flow. What trips me off that the pressures and the deltas you have been given us on the source side have been within specs, even with both units running.
    I did run some pressure drops for you earlier, and you should have enough flow to keep your heatpump(s) happy, even with you long header pipes, given that you use (2)26-116 pumps. So lets do the things here 1 by 1 . Check the thermostats programming, and then check the wiring of the heatpumps. Report back what you find.
    Then shut the valve to the split off, and measure temperature and pressure with only the 3 ton running in 2nd stage heating. Let us know the results.
  13. troy

    troy New Member


    Sorry I've been extremely busy the last week and have been needed on several job sites. Now to my geo. I had my master electrician neighbor come down and do some wire chasing although my neighbor is no hvac guy but here is what we found out. If we turn the aux heater off at the breaker my main geo hits the kw usage as lined out in my book. So some how when both my first and second stage come on some how my aux comes on but my heat doesn't increase. In other words the aux heater draws kw but doesn't produce any noticeable heat at the registers. I haven't had time to do the pressure drops with the lines shut off independently but will do my best to do them this week.
    Thanks to all of your with your patience, Troy
  14. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Did you check the correct thermostat wiring? It still sounds that it is wiring incorrectly, that aux heat comes on with 1st stage heat etc....
  15. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Have you checked with your dentist?

    We continue to point at our suspicions and suggest things to look at and you continue to introduce different tangents.

    Is there a reason you do not direct your energy where we suggest? I'm kind of hands in the air at this point.

    I suggest your very next step is to contact Geome who is amongst our most studied thermostat programmers and go through that angle first. He will ask specific questions that will require specific answers.
  16. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader


    I am with Joe here, I will stop replying to you, it is frustrating that way.......
  17. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Now you know this is an extreme case:D:D:D
  18. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I too, will wait and see what happens. My dance card is filling up, as we need to go install some stuff in Delaware Ohio area.

  19. geome

    geome Member Forum Leader

    As was suggested, we can look at the installer setup of the thermostat to see if that will help, but we need the complete thermostat model number first.
  20. troy

    troy New Member


    It's a climatemaster thermostat atp32u03. Is it okay to pull the cover off and look at the wires to see where they are going? I shut the valve off to the split and it didn't make a difference until I shut the heat strips off at the breaker. Sorry it's taking me so long to respond we had a guy last Tuesday in my office kill himself. Please remember I all I think I know about geo hvac is what I've learned over the past 6 months.

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