Discussion in 'Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by troy, Apr 19, 2011.

  1. troy

    troy New Member


    As stated earlier. I had a 17 year old 90 percent gas furnace and a 14 year old air to air heatpump prior to these geo"s. This winter was less harsh except for a couple of cold snaps and I added 20 some inches of blown insulation to my attic because of the geo. My electric bill is 40 percent higher even after you take off the the gas consumption. When it gets down to 40 degrees I just take the main geo offline because the geo will not keep the house warm. I dont even dare turn the geo up to 72 because it will never shut off and my loop temperatures fall very quickly. The quicker the loops drop the less heat I seem to get. My highest gas bill ever in this house was a couple of years ago and it was this high due to my heatpump going out and since i have 3 regiosters that I can open in the upstairs, I did. The downstairs was a little too warm but my kids were at least warm. With these geos we are always cold or we pay out the butt.
    Thanks Troy
  2. troy

    troy New Member

    troy h

    I turned both thermostats up 2 degrees not 3. Back in late march I was home for the day sick and the thermostat was set at 71 degrees and it was 71 degrees in the house and 67 degrees outside, but i was cold so I bumped the thermostat up by 1 degree and within 12 minutes my aux was on. Both of my thermostats were replaced with climate master ones in january. They were previously really nice honeywells but they didnt work well with the geo's.
  3. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The problem is, right now the loops are warm, and the pressure drop across the coil indicates that you have enough flow.

    How cold does you loop run when you have the problem? 30 F? 25 F EWT? 15F? Your loop is long enough, maybe part of the problem indeed is that it is not connected well to the gound. We will have to see.

    Also, if your aux comes on that early, you might have a thermostat issue (programming), the early aux might also partially explain your hight electric bill.

    I agree, you should do a diagram to clarify the piping to everyone and post it here. You can draw it up, take a picture of it then with your phone and email it to me, and I can post it here. We are guessing too much here.

    Temperature and Energy logging by: Web Energy Logger

    Here is a link to a sample diagram, yours can be much simpler, but please pay attention to detail. Make sure you get every valve etc.

    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  4. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Frankly Troy, your answers continue to lack enough substance for us to help. Not trying to bust your chops, but when we ask the same question repeatedly, it's because you haven't answered it yet.
    You covered ewt and lwt at the large unit and pressure drop for a time then kicked it into second stage but shut everything down.
    Do you honestly think when we trouble shoot we draw conclusions with so little info?
    Fact is we can't help you if you don't help us.
  5. troy

    troy New Member

    troy h

    Please remember, I know very little about hvac. I am trying to give all the info I know how to give. I can put the psi gauge and the thermometer in the ports at the geo and read them. I can see if my units are in first and second stage by looking at the thermostat. All i know is my hvac company has probed me and Im not saving crap on a 24000.00 geo. I have spent over 140 hours at my house letting them try different things. If i had an instruction book Id follow it and then i wouldnt need help. i guess I need to go back to school to learn Hvac.Im sorry for being critical but I feel some of you are treating me like I should know this crap. All I do know is Im not getting my 300-400% efficency and saving 30-40% savings. At this rate Ill double my cost of investment in 20 years and then I can do it all over again. This goofy goodman furnace that i had to put in because my family was cold in december blows both of these geo's away and costs me less to operate. A couple of years ago before the new windows and 20 inches of insulation our electric was off for 4 days. We ran a honda generator 2000 watt for 3 light bulbs , my tv and two refrigs and lastly the blower on my wood stove. We were comfortable and didnt have to go to a motel like everyone else did. So yes it pisses me off when a 24000.00 geo doesnt work like i think it should.
  6. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    Troy, you don't need to go back to school. The folks here have the knowledge to help you.

    If it was my system I would demand that who ever did the loop field get over there and bring the most powerful purge cart they could get. Run that thing for 6 hours if need be, forward and backwards. You mention things that indicate air in the lines. It must be removed before you can determine if the pea gravel is transferring enough heat to allow the geo to even work.

    Hopefully your not expecting the air coming out of the ducts to be as warm as the gas system. It will never happen. The geo should run almost all the time, when it working properly in winter. Slow and steady wins the race. AUX strips should not come on after 5 minutes if only 1 or 2 degree below set point.

  7. troy

    troy New Member

    troy h

    Im not expecting my heat out of the registers to be nearly as warm as gas "now". However I am expecting to save on my energy costs, I mean that is the hole selling point. At this rate I could of got by with goodman units that carry 10 warranties and Could of replaced them 3 times for the cost Ive spent on these geos, and been warmer. And in ten years what would we have then for heat, more than likely some kind of nuclear energy for the home, Maybe. The guys that installed these things were super nice but they just either didnt care or didnt know. By reading this forum Ive found out that 80 percent of the people absolutely love there geos, but the other 20% percent hate them and thats because they were not installed properly. And since my units were pretty much trial and error up to this point, Im in the 20% range.
    Thanks Troy
  8. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Troy asked me to post the drawings of his layout he emailed me.

    Attached Files:

  9. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Here are a couple pictures

    Attached Files:

  10. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Some more pics

    Attached Files:

  11. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Toy you spent 5 times as much energy carping about your system (by sentance count) as you did addressing (but not answering) my question.

    We get that you are frustrated, now I am too. I could help you if you'd help me.
    If you want to try, copy the troubleshooters checklist and paste it here with as many answers as you can come up with. Then we'll figure out how to get the answers you don't have. Try to avoid the tirades.

    Do all that maybe we can help.
    Continue to rant and rave without providing answers there is little that can be done remotely.....remember you are our eyes and ears.

    Good Luck,
  12. troy

    troy New Member


    Okay list is copied and sitting in front of me. I have a couple of questions.
    1. heat loss calculations that is the manual j correct?
    2.where do i get the design parameters of my loops? I know Ive got a closed loop .
    3. where do i get the percent of load to be covered by geo abd balance point.
    4.what is the installers assesment of my ystem operation.
    5. And number 10, I have no way of knowing exactly whatthis is.

    If these 5 things are things that I should have already, I dont. Ive been married for 21 years and have been in three houses and this is the first heating system Ive ever had to put in. If the installers assesment is if its working or not, according to them its been working correctly since november but yet oh so many changes.
    I hired who climate master suggested I hire, not some rogue compay. And if I should have these things, again I dont.
    I had some pictures and diagrams posted if you look at the one where the flowcenter looks like an amusement park ride, well that one is the first time they said the where completed. that way has been changed 3 times since then and you see what I have now by wayof my inside drawing diagram.
    Thank You Joe for taking the time to look just remember alot of thesethings may not be available and idont know how to get them.
  13. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Active Member Forum Leader

    In October 2010 you asked for help, 3 months after your install."Most of the problems with wells and flow". You didn't make another post till 9 months in.

    Still sounds like problems with wells and flow, maybe even refrigerant levels, I think I read about low levels causing problems.

    You have never said how low temps get. Just that they drop quickly and you switch to gas furnace. How low does the EWT get?? Do you know if your closed loop has some glycol or methanol for freeze protection?

    How can installer say it's operating properly? If water coming in at 50 degrees any heat pump will make heat. How cold is the water coming in when it is running but not making heat?

    I would think at 40 degrees outside an air source heat pump will keep you warm without AUX strips coming on. But yours come on with 2 degrees below set point. Are your heat pumps single stage with AUX or 2 stage plus AUX??

  14. troy

    troy New Member

    Troy h

    Chris, when I first signed onto the forum I truly didn't know I was signed on and it took me until now to get logged back on. I've never been one for a forum. Heck I don't really even like email and I don't do Facebook. My units are two stage with aux and yes I've always felt my problems are with my loops to my geos although my units have had expansion valves replaced, motherboards replaced, thermostats replaced, flow centers replaced and both units have been charged and discharged of freon many times along with many other things tried and these are supposedly top of the line tranquility 27 026 and 038 units. My goal from the beginning was to have geos and then eventually have solar, wind and hydro power here at my house. The geos were just my first step. At this point I wish I would of never of heard anything of geos on extreme home makeover 3 years ago. I do believe in the concept of geo just not in them around in my area. Here in my area there is the right way and the Jerry rig way, I've just got the Jerry rig. The more I read about geos the more I realize what should of been done in the beginning, especially after looking at the checklist of some of the things I should of got when I contracted this thing out. But on the other hand I did get 5 different quotes and then narrowed it down two 2 quotes and both of them were with mfg. Who recommended the installers, I just chose the wrong mfg. And installer.
    Thank you ,Troy
  15. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Troy, I feel your pain.

    I just lost two hours of research and typing on this situation.

    I am not doing it again.


    Loop piping, maybe.

    Inside piping.


    Barb connectors buried.

    Piped in reverse return?

    Is the loop side leaking water or gaining air?

    Split gets all or most of the water flow from the loop field, therefore main floor unit goes to AUX heat before it needs to go there

    What to do:

    Test loops for leaks.

    Add check valves, zone valves, pressure ports and temperature ports to each heat pump and to both sides of the loop system. Then we will be able to balance flow to the machines.

    Warm regards,

  16. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Is there any reason you dind't answer the questions you could?

    Remember if we can't get answers from you, we definately don't know how to get them.

    Honestly Troy, you need boots on the ground help. Call the company with the best reputation that you didn't hire and see what they say.

  17. troy

    troy New Member


    I lie in Lavalettel wv area code 2555
    -Main unit ttv 038
    -split unit tts 026
    -closed loop, only design parameters is what Ive drown and what I know,
    -.08301 Average consumption proir to geo 1874kw as of june of last year.
    -just kicked main unit on went to second stage in 3 minutes ewt53.9,lwt48,eat 69.9,lat 95.1.. .couldnt get 1st stage because 2nd stage kicked in so quickly, i only kicked thermostat up from 73 to 74 and both units are off.
    - I finally was able to get the other reputable company to come out and check system. after going through what had been done previously with him and him looking at everything, his reccomendation was to tear everything out and start over(i mean everything).He said because of some of the things the loops the way they are and because of the things they already had to do to the units, i was just playing with dynamite.
  18. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    You probably want to start with thermostat program. If your last included pressures we could determine heat of extraction. Which tells us how the unit is working, but the numbers look okay.
    We also need to know how other unit runs when both are on.
    Check International Ground Source Heat Pump Association certified installers list to see if there are pros in your area you are unaware.
  19. Designer_Mike

    Designer_Mike Member

    I believe Mark is right.
    Unless you have drastically simplified the piping diagram, it's not that complex.

    But, your split unit (first in line) could take almost ALL the flow from the flow center and the main unit will get zilch (especially if you have air in the system).
    I would imagine you also have all kinds of air issues in the loop field that only make troubleshooting nearly impossible.
    You need to balance the flow between the two and even have an auto valve that closes when only the main unit is asking for flow.

    AND....your thermostat needs serious reprogramming.

    Seems like you have given up on it and I agree with Joe, you need some reputable help. They should have a flow meter (hopefully) along with a good purge system.
  20. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    No need to rip everything out and no need to start over. They are good units, and the loopfield seems to be correctly sized and designed. Stay away from whoever suggests that. The loopfield might not connect to the ground correctly because of the gravel, but unless you don't tell us how cold the loop runs at the end of the heating season, we will not find out.
    You saying the units went off when you went from 73 to 74 and both units went off suggests that the thermostats might be wired wrong into the units, or that they need reprogramming. May be that is the reason your aux heat comes on when it should not, and partially explains your high energy bills.
    Right now your loops looks OK, the temps look OK, the last time you gave us the pressures, they looked OK indicating OK flow.

    Troy, by how much did you electric consumption up during the winter month? You mentioned earlier by 40%, which are about 740KWH/month,if your 1840 KWH is your baseline before the geo. Is that correct? What is your electric rate?
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011

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