HELP! MY GEO DOESNT WORK

I am on my 9 month of my geo install. I went with whom my mfg. reccomended and for the last 9 months have been a guinea pig. I reall believe my problems are down to my exterior wells. I have 6 wells that are 150 ft deep and 42 feet above in elevation of my pressurized flow center with 2 pumps. The wells are 340 feet from house and are 3/4 pipe and 1.25 pipe from the wellls to the house. My wells are not grouted but pea gravel. This system is a 3 ton package unit and a 2 ton split tranquility 27. I could spend all day writing what has happened in the past and you really wouldnt believe me, all I know is when it gets down to 40 degrees I just go ahead and disconnect my geo and turn on the 95% gas furnace. Is there anyone out there who know how these things should be installed? 304-840-7822

 

I could spend all day writing how these things should be installed,
but did you really expect anyone to make an effort to propose a
solution when you can't be bothered to describe the problem(s)?

...sheesh!

 

Lobby:

Mind your manners.

Not a welcoming post.

Mark

 

Troy:

You have Voice Mail.

Mark

 

Troy,
nothing sounds too unusual with your loopfield except that it is pretty far away from the house.

Since you have 2 heatpumps, do both are causing problems? How are the 2 heatpumps connected to the circluation pump(s)/flow centers(s).
There is a trouble shooting list, please fill out as much information as you can provide and post it here, including an all day story what is it that is not working, so we can start to help.
Thanks

 

troy h

Well after spending the last hour and a half letting my critics know about my geo, the forum logged me out and then wouldnt let me send all that was typed, so again my ge has screwed up a few more hours of my life. I will try and do this quickliy and in again more condensed form. I am truly sorry if I cant explain everything in hvac lingo.
6 wells 150 ft deep with pea grave 42 ft above in elevation from my pressurized flow center which used to be a B & D qt. the wells are 340 ft from my house in 1.25 inch line. My inside the house lines have been redone 3 times with 5 different combinations of pumps. I have a 3 ton package unit and a 2 ton split tranquility 27(both). Some things that have been tried. purging the lines twice no more than 2 hours each time, expansion valve replaced, thermostats replaced, mother board replaced. multiple charging and discharging of freon, factory technicians sent here twice. Things I know for sure; line pressure has went from 37 to 14 off and 30 to 2 psi running in 5 months, ewt psi is showing between 18-20 psi shaking(i think this means air in the lines), i have two pumps, instead of saving 30-40% its costing me an extra 30% ,it was costing me an extra 150% before the factory came in and discharged 16 0z from main unit and put in 14 oz in the split, I know my energy consumption because i installed a TED energy monitor when I first saw things were not going well, my ewt and lwt is between 6-9 and that depends on how long I let the loops sit when I have to take my main geo off line and turn the new gas furnace that I had to install back on dec. 23 because my family was freezing, Ive spent 140 hours meeting technicicians at my house to try something else, my water generator is hooked to my water tank bass akwards according to all the mfg. of geos, i have a family of 4 who always had enough hot water on a 40 gallon gas watertank, but since I now have this wonderful new geo and a 50 gallon electric we only have enough hot water for 2.5 people, I guess thats one thing Im saving on,. Listen my head is busting because of this geo, Im exhausted and Im trying to type as quickly as possible so if this is unclear to jeesh, Im sorry. By the way mark thanks for calling me. I can be reached anytime during the day, I am trying to run a commercial flooring company and I dont always have cell coverage, so if you leave a message I will call you back. Oh by the way this is my very first forum, so please have a little patience, I will eventually learn it. My email is troyhouchin@yahoo.com

 

troy h

A couple more statements. In mid march I was home sick for a day. It was 67 degrees outside and my thermostat was set at and was 71 degrees. I was still cold. I turned the thermostat up 1 degree and within 12 minutes my aux heaters had to come on. Based on everything that i have read I have plenty of pipe in the ground but what if I have a couple of loops air locked. I know now that it was against mfg reccomendations and state law to backfill with gravel. My delta t is between 16 and 22 degrees. My home is built as follows. Exterior walls are 14 inches thick by way of brick, block, 1 inch of plaster , 4" of insulation and 1/2 inch drywall. I have brand new low e and argon gas fill windows an 30" of blown in insulation. My highest gas bill ever in this house was last year before the new windows and insulation and it was 249.00 for a 2600 sf. I will never recoup my geo investment.

 

Troy, sorry for your troubles. You are still a bit all over things here. It is important that you are focussed so we can help

1) Describe the models of your circulation pumps.
2) B&D usually makes non-pressurized flowcenter. What did you have and what do you have now?
3) Lets start with your loop first: What are the Entering and leaving water temperatures (EWT, LWT) measured at the heat pump(s)
4) What do you mean by "my ewt and lwt is between 6-9". Is this the delta between EWT and LWT in degrees F? Or is this the actual temperature going out and coming in?
5) what is the pressure difference in PSI between outgoing and incoming water?
6) Describe in detail how your heatpumps are connected to the flowcenter (if you have such a thing). A picture or drawing would also be very helpful.

So lets look at your loop first and go from there. Thanks

 

Like Doc, I'm reluctant to believe your EWT (entering water temp) is 6-9, or that your EWP (entering water pressure was -20).
Both of these things would be very obvious problems.
I suggest you get (if you don't already have) a probe type thermometer and a pressure gauge as well. With those things you can tell us EWT/LWT, Delta P of entering and leaving water and EAT/LAT. If you can accurately provide these #'s we can better assisst you.
Also tell us where you are located.
j

 

troy h

My ewt and lwt varies greatly on how long the units have to run. Yesterday my ewt was 52.9 and my lwt was 42.6 in heating mode. Last night my ewt pressure was between 18-20 and the same was my lwt. The needle was bouncing back and forth. Before you get to my two climate master pumps(up26-116u) there is a small plastic canister with a water valve on it, at the top if it there is a psi gauge that when the pumps are not running it reads 15psi and when running it reads around 5psi. Just after the pumps there is a climate master pump slaving module part # APSM. The line coming out of the pumps and feeding my split is like this. two feet a "t" a valve and then to my split unit then 4 ft to my split, on the other side of the "t" then a valve and then 8 ft. to my main 3 ton package unit. I hope this is clearer. Ive tried to send pics to the forum through my Iphone bout I dont know if I can do that. Thanks for the replies.

 

The numbers indicate that you have very little flow. Please confirm that you measured the temps and the pressure right at the heatpump. How did you measure? Did you have a needle thermometer? Did you have a needle pressure gauge? Are the valves you describe after the T fully open? Sorry for asking twice, but your numbers indicate some issues with flow, and we want to be absolutely correct here. Your flow is less then half what it should be. It could be air in the loop, it could be not enough pumping power, your header line appears to be quite long. Do the pumps come on in series, meaning one circulation pump comes on when one heatpump starts, or do both circulation pumps run already when only 1 heatpump runs. With your 10.3 degrees delta T between EWT and LWT, I assume that was the 3 ton heatpump? Did both circulation pumps run at that time, and did both heatpumps run, or just one? Sorry to be that specific, but it is important. You got mail to send me the pictures....

 

@ Todd:

You have flow issues at both ends of your loop system/house system. I have read the above post three times and can not "see" what is happening, yet, how the system decides which Machine gets what from the wells.

I would re-test the system, as it is for leaks. We talked about this by phone, sort of. It is not my fault that the "can you hear me guy" does not run up and down the lake shore. I do not pay for when they think I am in Ontario. All you need to do that is a pump and access to the loop side. At this point in the season plain water would work. My thinking is that the system will need a near unit piping change, in the home or up the hill, so we will need to re-flush anyway.

It is sad that you do not have pictures of the well head installation. From what I am hearing the wells are not piped reverse return. You have an idea of how I would correct that. I know the 1 1/4" pipe to and from the well field will handle up to 160,000 BTUH at 20* delta T and 16.6 GPM if piped correctly. If the well head manifold is correct, and the indoor plumbing is correct, then we do the math. If you are now pumping a pair of 26-116 you have plenty of power and the piping is wrong. (I have a test 26-116 in service in Massillon, Ohio). They must have put them into production.

Find an old camera and take some pictures of the inside plumbing or find a way to post phone pictures here. If nothing is leaking then the problem is either piping or air.

warm regards,

Mark

 

I got some pictures in my email, and what sticks out so far that there is a flowcenter with (2) 26-116 then a T after the heatpump, where the pipe tees off to go into each heatpump, and then back via a T to the flowcenter. One pump pushes, one pulls. No way to control flow to each pump, except with 2 shut off valves, which appear to be wide open.
Could be that the vast majority of the flow is going through the split, and almost none through the 3 ton W-A.

The other issue is the 680 total feet of header pipe, plus the loopfield, plus the heatpump, the pressure drop appears to be higher than (2) 26-116 can handle. The ft of head they are making is only 10% higher than a 26-99, but they consume 350 watt instead of 245. Very inefficient to have them both comeon when only 1 heatpump is running, and pumping water through a non-running heatpump. I will do the math tomorrow for the pressure drop.

Mark, I do not get your 20 degree delta. His almost non existing pressure delta and 10 degree temp delta indicates that he has less than 5 gpm going through the 3 ton (Troy, was that in first or second stage running?).

Your application is the reason they make flowcenters for multiple circuits, with dedicated pump(s) for each circuit, so each heatpump gets fed its needed volume.

Flow Centers : E-Series : Geothermal Supply : E-Series Flow Centers
The piping you have there now is unlikely to work.
All those issues should have surfaced during start up and commissioning. I don't get how they can commission a system like that.

 

troy

okay this morning this is the readings I took. First i turned the heat on the split. in first stage ewt was 54.6 and lwt was 50. i then put psi gauge in entering port and psi was 19 and exiting was 15. This was all in ist stage. I then immediately turned on main unit psi was the same when both units running and i immefdiately went back to split and tested psi and it was the same. Main unit ewt was 54.8, lwt was 48.7. in first stage. All of this took place within 5 minutes. I turned both units up 2 degrees and by the time i went back to split aux heaters had already kicked on at 6 minutes. I then turned both units off. Anyone can post pics that I have sent them. Nobody can honestly believe me what I have been through on these geo. Im telling everyone Ive been a lab rat. Theyve tried it all. the factory has been here twice with 4 men. 1st time for 5 hours 2nd time for 7 hours. After the first time my split shut down due to fp1 wire. Im willing to do almost anything, I can even copy all the pics and burn them to cd and send them. Basically whatever it takes.
Thanks to all for looking, Troy

 

troy h

I mentioned earlier in on of my post about my water desp. being hooked up backwards. Ill explain. My cold water supply line goes into the bottom of water tank where it tees off before it goes into the bottom of water tank, on the other side of the t is where it splits off and goes into the geo, it then comes out of geo and goes into the cold water side of the top of the water tank. Is this why my family cannot all take hot showers. Before when i had a gas water tank we all took hot showers and that was only 40 gallons. Now I have a 50 gallon electric hooked up the way it is and we can make through 2.5 people. Let me remind everyone my family has always known how much time they get in the shower. Oh the bottom element is turned off. The contractor says the way its installed is correct, but according to all the geo manufacturers this is correct. They even pulled a ten year old installation instruction out and said it was correct. If it is correct why have they changed it. The last rep they sent in sent me an email saying it doesnt matter which way its hooked up. Is there a difference? If so what does it cause.
Thanks Troy

 

I am pretty new to geo, but have learned a lot on this forum.

The numbers look normal at stage 1. A 2 degree bump up should kick in stage 2 of compressors not aux. Could there be a thermostat problem??

Re Desuperheaters: Units have to be running a lot to create warm water, electric tank will finish heating to final temp. I would think it needs both elements on to heat quicker for more showers. Also I think a lot of people use a buffer tank and a finish tank.

ChrisJ

 

Desuper

I would also recommend that a holding tank, connected to the desuper heater, feeding into the electric tank, be installed. That way the electric tank acts as a finishing tank for your hot water, with both elements active. Since the holding tank was added to my system, I have never run out of hot water.

Good luck with the rest of your system, hope the bugs get worked out soon.

 

Troy, the numbers are certainly different then the last you have given us. There is no indication that the loop is not performing, your temperatures look normal, actually a bit to warm, indicating that you did not take much heat out this winter.

The pressure looks good, so does the delta T. The only flaw I can see is that the circulation pumps are running inefficiently, since they both come on when only one heatpump is calling for them. (2) 26-116 make about 51 ft of head. Your loopfield and heatpump has a pressure drop in the lower 40s, most ofit coming from the header pipe. The 26-116 use about 800 watts when running, actually (2) 26-99 would do the job, consuming less then 500 watts when running both, if they could improve the design to dedicate one pump per heatpump, that would provide additional efficiency. Having a 3 pump flowcenter was even more overkill.

Your one tank for domestic hot water is another problem. With only one tank, the desuperheater in the heatpumpis competing with the electric element in the tank, causing the circulation pump for the desuperheater to shut off prematurely. I just had the scenario where a family of 5 was spending $1000 a year for hot water because the DSH was hardly running due to the 1 tank design. A buffer tank will allow the DSH to make a substantial larger portion of your hot water. we have discussed this here before why the manufactures recommend both, 1 and 2 tank design, when the 1 tank design is so inefficient and costs so much more to operate, especially with a larger family.

Thermostat: Factory settings: 1 F below setpoint=1st stage, 2F below setpoint = 2nd stage, 3 F below setpoint = aux heat

You increasing the setpoint by a total of 3 degrees should trigger the aux heat to come on, what it did.

Could you please let us know what is it what you think does not work with your system, and does not full fill your expectation. I don't want you to tell us what you think is wrong (e.g. "it must be my loopfield"), just tell us the symptoms, beside the high operating costs, and not enough hot water (where we already have identified the issue). Is it still not heating your house comfortably?
Thanks

 

It sounds like your piping is hooked up in a "unique" way. With multiple pumps, heat pumps, loop field and other components I would be willing to be you have some nasty short circuiting and backflow issues when some components come on.
Water just like electricity will find the path of least resistance and the shortest pipe back to the pump is the path most traveled.

These problems can be very hard to notice or wrap your head around. A three way valve here, a three way valve with a tee ball instead of an L ball (which you can never see) and you have an ugly problem on your hands.
Someone needs to draw up a P&ID and follow the yellow brick road to the loopfield and try to short circuit the maze.
Drop in a check valve and the ship might right itself