Help appreciated with this geothermal quote

Discussion in 'Quotes and Proposals' started by newtogeo, Sep 15, 2011.

  1. newtogeo

    newtogeo New Member

    I first of all want to point out that I'm posting this quote because I lack the sufficient knowledge of geothermal systems to make sense of all the fantastic data provided in this quote. I can shop quotes myself, so that's not the reason I'm posting. This installer (whose name I will not post on this site) has been great to work with so far and has been very thorough and enthusiastic about what he does. A few reasons why I'm posting this quote.

    1. Does this quote look thorough to you professionals?
    2. Is the load calculated correctly (oversized/undersized)?
    3. Does the price seem reasonable (again, not asking to shop quotes, but if it is reasonable for the proposed work and loop configuration)?

    Background information: This is going to be a 2,031 square foot new construction ranch home in a rural location near Canton/Akron, Ohio.

    I'm becoming more educated in geothermal systems and have had a lot of trouble finding another installer in my area that knows what they are talking about and can back up the sizing of their system.

    Also, this same installer that provided this quote gave me the option of cutting cost by using a well (we need to have a well in our location) to use an open loop design. He made it sound like the exiting water from the system would be returned to the well as opposed to being dumped elsewhere. I've researched closed loops a lot more than open loops, but if you had the option and the correct flow rates/water quality in your well which would you choose?

    Thanks for all the information and insight you can provide. My goal is to become more educated so I can make the right decision. This is going to be a lifelong home for my family.
     
  2. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    The quote seems reasonable.

    I would ask them to give you a second quote and operating costs figuring a 3 ton, since the balance point for the 4 ton is 1° and the 4 ton covers 99.9% of the heating load.
     
  3. engineer

    engineer Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Price seems more than fair.

    I agree with the idea of seeking a 3 ton alternative proposal.

    Open loop with reinjection, if water quality, quantity, depth and well configuration permits, may well be the most efficient option as well as costing less upfront. Definitely find out if others have gone that way near you.

    I'm skeptical that a horizontal borefield would offer an average heating loop temp of 47.8*F with a deep earth temp of 52

    Why design for a balance point of 1*F with a winter design outdoor temp of 6*F, unless I'm missing something...

    Given the Elite load preview report, I can't see going any higher than 3T. 3T will do a much better job during cooling season - more efficient and better dehumidification.

    Is all the ductwork within conditioned space? I see zeros for duct loads

    I'm a bit skeptical of the low summer / winter infiltration rates...are those supported by blower door data?
     
  4. ACES-Energy

    ACES-Energy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Does that include ductwork/tin in the entire home? If so, seems very fair!

    What about electrical service and wiring?
    Be sure the use of HDPE pipe from flow center to the unit.
    How does he seal wall penetrations?
    Warranty? ?
     
  5. newtogeo

    newtogeo New Member

    This is going to be a new construction home, so how do I approach asking about his data?
     
  6. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I would say

    ...."Show me why you think these numbers are correct." I would wonder if there was any hesitation to answer your request.

    I am less than two hours from you if you need a second option.

    Mark
     
  7. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Mind you the 1 * balance point is with a 72* wineter set point. It would be sub zero at 70.

    That said, I don't think newto will be unhappy with system described, but I too would like to offer the suggestion of comparing the 3 ton. We are a couple hours north and would use a 3 ton here.

    Price for a new build pretty close to our rates here.

    Aces- did you suggest the more ridgid HDPE vs a hose kit between the flow center and the heat pump?
    j
     
  8. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Joe

    Where do these questions go? Cyberspace.
     
  9. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    We do the same thing, HDPE pipe all the way to the heatpump. I don't like those hose kits either.
     
  10. ACES-Energy

    ACES-Energy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    90% we fuse with HDPE all the way to the heat pump...its takes more time and costs more money in material but like it much better (most of the time). You can tell a true pro versus someone who rented the fusion tool and flush cart for the week.

    We have been in occasion to use the hose kits and am actually doing one this week, but it was because of the situation we are in with a tight location and pipe coming in on a weird angle....
     
  11. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    What fittings do you use for P/T ports when running poly to the heat pump?
     
  12. AMI Contracting

    AMI Contracting A nice Van Morrison song Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Oh, I think we can agree that many "true pro's" use hose kits.

    I percieve the hose kits as "vibration isolation" and just like canvass connectors employ them as a soft break between the heat pump and more rigid piping. This is not only important to keep from telegraphing noise, but it also offers less stress on the heat pump and flow center fittings.

    Do I see hard pipe all the way to the heat pump as particularly problematic?....No.
    Unfortunately the context it was brought up in was a discussion of a particular estimate and the implication was that hose kits are inferior.

    I don't think use of a hose kit is a deal breaker nor a disqualifier for a particular bid.

    joe
     
  13. Palace GeoThermal

    Palace GeoThermal Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    I agree with Joe, using hose kits and being a pro are not mutually exclusive. We do both.
     
  14. ACES-Energy

    ACES-Energy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    HI guys, after thinking about this, I agree with you! I guess I should have prefaced my comments with some background....There are a few "wanna be" installers around that do a geo once or twice a year that are complete hacks! I have seen bad hose kits installs, no insulation, zip ties to hang pipe from the ceiling, bad flex duct installs and more PVC on supply/return piping that you could buy at home depot and lowes combined...doing a job that will require one, so i take back part my comment and should have said hose kits or pvc installed by hacks or wanna be installers
     
  15. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    here it is
     

    Attached Files:

  16. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

     

    Attached Files:

  17. lobr

    lobr New Member

    Loop

    After having to convert from open to close loop after just two years, I would suggest a closed loop. Others have said it here in the past - no matter how good the water quality looks right now it can and does change. Eliminate the possible headache of an unknown and stick with the closed loop.
     
  18. newtogeo

    newtogeo New Member

    Thanks for the advice. It would be around $4,000 less to go open loop, but I really don't want to have to deal with the added maintenance and unknowns involved in water quality. I'm going to be in this house for the next 50-60 years (Lord willing), so I want it done right the first time.
     
  19. newtogeo

    newtogeo New Member

    I'm meeting with the (same) geothermal installer tomorrow to get a 3 ton quote as many of you have recommended. Any questions I should be prepared to ask going into the meeting? Thanks again for all the help.
     
  20. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Mainly how he arrives at his recommendation for a 4 ton....
     

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