geothermal question with existing unused well

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by buffalo heat, Dec 1, 2013.

  1. buffalo heat

    buffalo heat New Member

    hello friends,

    i have a few questions.moved into a fixer upper about 2 years ago, im in the burbs of buffalo ny. currently im heating with oil on a water boiler. i can have natural gas tapped into rather cheaply , but id like to explore this option.
    so ihave a well that we dont use anymore. we had town water taped about a year ago. im not sure the depth or gpm , i would have to lookinto that. it is located about 150-200' from the house. it ran off what i believe is a deep well pump. the pump has an intake and return to wl line , where when running it continually pmped water back to the well. the lines coming into the basement are a
    prrox 1" to 1 1/4" hard black plastic.

    the house is under 2000 sqft , maybe an addition at some point years down the road. what are the odds i could use this well for geothermal ? could i just use the well for an open loop and let the pump return the water back to the well?
     
  2. buffalo heat

    buffalo heat New Member

    sorry for the bad spelling and puncuation , my only net acess is a phone and its a pain.
     
  3. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    the depth of the well and GPM you need to draw from it will be a big determing factor of using it for an open loop system. What your looking to do is use your well as a "semi-closed loop" system called a Standing Column Well.
     
  4. Jerry_NJ

    Jerry_NJ Member

    Open loop may be restricted by you state or local governmental restrictions... you know Big Brother Knows Best (not).

    I'd tap the Natural Gas. The well if used will need electricity to pump, and it may more cost in pumping. I know/have a closed loop that is versicle is fairly low power consumption as it is pumping down one side (gravity helps) and up the other. Of course the compressor is the main power consumer and I see ever higher electric cost due to other governmental interference. Of course, the big Green type don't like natural gas either so who can say where that price will go due to "executive orders".. the congress has rejected attempts to legislate more governmental restrictions and taxes. We have a lot of natural gas, so I don't think short supply is likely in the future...the other/real driver of cost/price.

    Yes I have a geothermal, have had it for 20 years and it has saved me more than it cost in energy savings against the price of oil heat... no so sure about against natural gas heat, which is not a option for me. Gas heat is also a lot less complex, any dealer can service and do routine maintenance. The dealer that put in my system has retired and his business closed, a local HVA service outfit is not a option for me - and as shown in a post by me this morning I am now in need of some repair expertise.
     
  5. hardchines

    hardchines Member Forum Leader

    If well is not too deep (150 ft or less is good) and you can get very high flow from well, using the well would be very cost effective, BUT you can not introduce the water back to the well as the water would change temp real fast . You need to dump the water elsewhere.
     
  6. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    If the supply side of things can handle the demands if the heat pump that's great.
    Water quality is also a major determining factor for utilizing it for geothermal as well.
     
  7. Jerry_NJ

    Jerry_NJ Member

    Is there a special (justified higher cost/efficiency) well pump for use with geothermal?

    My understanding with my closed loop vertical 250' deep loops is the fact my pumps are pushing water back in as well as pumping it up it takes a lot less energy to move the water/antifreeze than if the pumps were lifting the water 250', even a lot less than lifting water 100'.

    I have a well for household water that is about 125' deep. I don't have the numbers handy but I recall the pumping cost was small (compared to public service delivered water) but did add up if I ran the garden hose all day on lawn and near house shrubs.
     
  8. buffalo heat

    buffalo heat New Member

    well my first year my well went dry when it dint rain all summer long. plus looking at my pump it sucks energy. i would assume a closed loop system uses circulators ? i think i would need to drill in order to do this.with all the other work i need to do to my house , i think i may just tap the natural gas and install a forced air furnace.
    i want in floor heating and ac and i dont believe there isa way to do this water to water , water to air?
     
  9. Jerry_NJ

    Jerry_NJ Member

    Exactly, and my circulatory pumps even with a closed loop are no "cream puffs".. still their energy is figured into a COP of 4 or better (loop over 32 degrees) and a EER of 20 or better with a loop of 70 degrees. I think my loop never reaches either limit, and the efficiency is even higher.

    Water Furnace has a Synergy line that is designed with hot water heat and forced air cooling.
     
  10. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Buffalo:

    I design what you want all the time. We have a home in Avon, OH. that leverages 6 zones of radiant floor heat from a buffering tank supplied from a 5 ton water 2 water heat pump.

    Mark
     
  11. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

  12. buffalo heat

    buffalo heat New Member

    thanks jerry im looking over thier site now.ill probably get the natural gas tapped either way. just for a stove if nothing else , dont like electric , and my electric hot water tank leaks randomly , well over due. im gonna grab a nat gas tank and tap the line . ill call monday , dont know if they will do it this time of year or not.
    i would like to escavate around my cinderblock basement and seal it from the exterior , my with some good planning i can burry a loop horizontaly instead of a well and the cost of the escavator would be worth it. i have over 16 acers sitting here. i do have a good size creek that flows through it . i see people use ponds but that has to be less efficient correct? the water temp has to get well below ground temp during winter?
     
  13. buffalo heat

    buffalo heat New Member

    thanks doc , i see thier van around often and at supply houses , its usually a young kid drivng for parts so i neverreally talked to him or better yet question him. my buddy owns a residential heating company and has it in his shop. he drilled wells and i think it cost 12k for the wells. i do a ton of residential furnace ac work but i dont know much yet about geo. im a union sheet metal worker , and a foreman for a larger commercial company so the work is well within my ability , i just need the knowledge. ill prob stary roughing in ductwork soon. gotta get off this oil.
     
  14. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Yes, we only do child labor! Most of our employees are young and eager to learn, very happy with the young crowd.

    Let me know if we can help with advise and know how.
     
  15. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    LOL @ Doc.

    Ponds work very well.

    Mark
     
  16. buffalo heat

    buffalo heat New Member

    sorry if that came across wrong doc , i dint mean for it too , lol. im young , well maybe at heart, ipp apperciate your advise/ help . i have alot of work to do , the heating is only a small part( additions , roofs , basement issues) but im interested in the geo.
    maybe i can ask you guys this. i can probabqly snatch a free used natural gas furnace . then i can rough the duct and have that all set up while designing my system.before i rough any duct and pan cold air bays id like to put infloor loops in the basement joists.do you have any advise on what to use or even better read on this process? im told drill holes through the joists to accept 1/2" pex up high , in 300 ft loops to manifold .
     
  17. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Easy! We like humor here. I highly advise you to use pex with aluminum transfer plates for under the floor installation to reduce supply temperatures, which are key to heatpump efficiencies.
     
  18. buffalo heat

    buffalo heat New Member

    been doing a bunch of reading. anyone ever install a system like this adgveo.com. ? they pipe refrigerant into the ground instead of using water as a medium. thoughts?
     
  19. docjenser

    docjenser Well-Known Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    It is called direct exchange. Every system people put in in our area either failed or worked very inefficient. The problem is that the heattransfer is very efficient between the copper and the ground, so efficient that the ground cannot keep up with it and cannot bring heat fast enough to the pipes.
     
  20. Calladrilling

    Calladrilling Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Since DX is illegal here in good Ol' NJ... I have never seen a DX system installed.
    I have always known about the Low PH soils here would eat the copper away. I never thought about the ground becoming heat soaked too quickly through the copper pipes though.
    I guess i will not have to worry about that in NJ aways.
     

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