Geothermal Costs

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Bluecuda, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. Bluecuda

    Bluecuda New Member

    I have been actively looking for an HVAC company to fill my needs in the Cincinnati area, and have gotten several quotes so far. To be honest, I'm shocked at the 2 quotes I've gotten so far.

    My house is fairly spread out, having 2 additions added to it over the years, but is it just me or does there seem to be a LOT of price gouging going on with geothermal. It's almost as if it's the new buzzword, and it's got some kind of luxury tax added right on top.

    Add to that the stimulus package, and it's like a license to print money or something. 30% tax credit must mean add 30% to the price!!

    After looking for several months, I do think Geothermal is the way to go in the future. Energy prices are going to continue to rise, and at the payback time on a geothermal system is going to continue to get shorter and shorter. Is there anyone on here from the Cincinnati area that can recommend a good installer that won't try to burgle me in the process?
  2. cdhand

    cdhand Guest

    What prices did you get? I have a 2 and 3 ton envision with 6, 200 ft. wells. Cost was $30,000. No duct work had to be done. It cut my electric by 65 dollars per month I had a 3 and a half ton 12 seer unit before. The units are very quiet clean and even nice looking I would say that it is the best thing that I have bought in years. I must say that if I had waited 9 grand sure would have looked good. Hope you get a good deal but know what you are buying don't just look for the best price anyone can give a great price for a small loop system. tell them to put in writing what your ewt should be. The high price guy might give you a very good job. If your system don't work as you were told, you want give a damn how cheep it was.
  3. moondawg

    moondawg Member

    I got a Waterfurnace NDV049A111CTR installed, with all new ductwork, DSH plumbing, electrical connection (I ran the wires to the unit, they connected them) 2-zone operation, and horizontal ground loop for $16,500. My excavator dug the 250 foot x 5 foot x 5 foot trench for $750. The loop has 3 lines out and back, buried at 5 feet and ~3 feet. that's 1500 feet of pipe in the ground. It seems a little low, but I've only had the Emergency heat on once this winter as far as I know. (unless it's kicking in at night when I'm sleeping.) we have our temps set at 70 deg downstairs (first floor 1700 sqft +1000 unfinished, uninsulated basement) and 68 upstairs (700sqft.) )

    EWT must be just above freezing, as there is ice on the input side of the flowcenter, but not the output side. Also, the ground above the loop has sunk roughly 1 foot since operation began in mid-november... so I'm hoping to do a little better on EWT next year.

    I am in Columbus, IN.
  4. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    My grand sons live in

    the Queen city.

    Have tools, do travel.

  5. Bluecuda

    Bluecuda New Member

    I was quoted just over $40k for 8 tons of capacity using our existing duct work. There are several things that are bothering me, other than the price. First, neither company did any kind of heat loss analysis. They basically just matched what we have currently. Second, they didn't do any kind of flow rate analysis, so I really have no clue how well the system will work with a 2 stage Climatemaster geo unit.

    Mark: thanks for the offer to come down. I'd rather stick with a local company that I have recourse with should there be any issues that need to be resolved.
  6. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    No heat loss/heat gain?

    You should not allow them to touch your home. The FIRST step is the heat loss/gain analysis. THAT information will allow the contractor to choose the correct tonnage for your home. THAT information will allow the contractor to make sure the duct work can handle the required air flow AND allow the loop contractor to properly size the loop field for YOUR home.

  7. brandoree

    brandoree Member

    Don't waste your money

    I live in greater Cincinnati and had geothermal installed in my newly-built home. It came standard with an 80% efficient Bryant furnace and AC. We could have upgraded to a "90 Plus" system for an additional $3700.

    When we decided to go geothermal, we were given credit on what we were to get (while keeping the ductwork costs).

    It ended up costing us an additional $12,000 to get a 3 ton two stage Waterfurnace Envision, completely installed with 3 vertical holes (150 feet deep), deepesuperheater and ECM variable speed fan.

    While we wanted a quality name brand geothermal unit, our biggest concern was the quality of the installation and the reputation of the installing company.

    The company we chose was a "Geopro" Waterfurnace dealer - which means they have Waterfurnace's "stamp of approval" and have proven to Waterfurnace that they know what they are doing.

    They had done over 650 geothermal installations and have been dealing with geothermal for over 20 years. They know what they are doing - no guesswork involved.

    We threw the price in with the cost of our house, financing the additional $12000 over 30 years (about $65 more a month)

    We now save well over $100 a month compared to our neighbors with similar sized houses that had non-geo units installed.

    Besides that, we have the peace of mind knowing that we own the most efficient heating/cooling unit on the market today and that it was installed by a highly qualified company.

    I don't want to name names here -
    but if you google cincinnati waterfurnace - you should be able to figure out who I dealt with.
    They will have a booth at the upcoming Home and Garden Show
  8. Bluecuda

    Bluecuda New Member

    Thanks for the replies!! From what I have read, one of the major expenses is drilling the holes for the loops. The quotes I've gotten so far have all been 150' holes, 1 per ton of heating and cooling needed. They're telling me $2k a hole to drill. It's funny because I found a drilling company that will drill for $4 a foot. Seems to me that hole should cost $600 and not $2k. I guess the old rule of tripling the cost of the subs applies fully and then some...
  9. Bergy

    Bergy Member Industry Professional Forum Leader

    Will the...

    $4 a foot driller install the loops, fuse them together at the manifold, pressure test them, grout the bore holes with Bentonite groute, flush and fill them with the proper mix of antifreeze and water?

    It really is more work than most people realize.

  10. brandoree

    brandoree Member

    hopefully, the new 30% tax credit will offset the price of geothermal and place it on more of an even playing field with the other types of HVAC systems.

    I'm getting $2000 back, because mine was put in last year - but now if someone spends $20,000 for a 3 ton system with 3 vertical holes, the $6000 credit should pay for the holes - but it probably depends on where you live and how good of a deal you get.
  11. Bluecuda

    Bluecuda New Member

    I realize that there is a lot more to putting the pipe in the ground, but from the information I've received so far, they're stating $2k a hole for drilling, not for grout, pressure testing, flushing the pipes, antifreeze, or anything like that. In fact, I have yet to receive anything in writing from the HVAC companies I've contacted. They've all either called me with a price or emailed me a price, and seem unwilling to go much further at this point. Perhaps I just haven't found the right contractor for me.

    Correct me if I'm wrong on the tax credit, but doesn't it just reduce the total taxable income by 30% of the cost of the job? Let's say the total cost of the Geothermal for my house is $30k. That would give me a $10k tax credit. The government isn't going to send me a $10k check. They're going to allow me to reduce my taxable income by $10k. So, if I made $100k last year, they will only tax me on $90k instead of $100k. It's like paying for 30% of the cost of the Geothermal with pre-tax dollars, right?
  12. moondawg

    moondawg Member

    No. It's a CREDIT, not a DEDUCTION. You are describing a DEDUCTION.

    30% of 30k is 9k. In your scenario, you'd get a 9k credit off the taxes you owe.
  13. Bluecuda

    Bluecuda New Member

    So, if you own $3k in taxes, with a $9k credit, do they refund you $6k?
  14. moondawg

    moondawg Member

    Sort of. You can carry it forward to next year.
  15. brandoree

    brandoree Member

    I had three holes drilled and the cost was $4957 - that's about $1650 per hole.

    Here's a youtube video I posted for my family and friends to see from about this time last year showing the hole drilling.

    YouTube - Geothermal drilling

    The truck backed up onto my property, tilted the drill up and started drilling

    - it was a one-man job.

    He is sitting in the rectangular enclosure on the right hand side.
    If you look close, you can see his leg/knee sticking out at the bottom

    I didn't stick around to see how long it took, but he was done in a day.

    wow... I just noticed.... over 2000 views!
    I don't have that many friends....
    people must be interested in geothermal drilling:)
  16. CRE10

    CRE10 Member

    Price a drilling rig to buy plus maintain and that might explain the cost of drilling. Drilling is a last resort as horizontal is much more cost effective.
  17. cs6000

    cs6000 New Member

    I have to agree with the initial poster that the geothermal installers are now trying to up their costs due to the tax credit.
    The credit is all they talk about "but you get 30% back!"
  18. sunnyflies

    sunnyflies Member Forum Leader

    Talk about prices!

    I am about to meet with a driller shortly and will be curious to see what he charges for three 300' deep closed loops. Around here, people charge through the roof. I doubt his price will be anywhere near as low as $5,000 for three holes. I only wish it would be. I'm betting $20,000.

    Brandoree: How deep were your holes? What was your soil like?

    I have an estimate for $7,700 for a simple pump and dump system, 60" deep, through sand. Plus, $22 per foot if we need to go deeper. I see others posting prices of wells that run so much less. It's frustrating.
  19. wade

    wade New Member

    50 k Geo Install: New Construction

    I moved into my new home about 5 weeks ago. I have three units.

    1.Basement 2 ton FHP approx. 1700 square feet finished conditioned space walk out basement on 1500' of 1" HDPE approx. 14' deep horizontal closed loop.

    2. Mid or main Floor 3.5 ton FHP. Approx. 2100 square feet , on a 750 foot vertical well, 1 1/4" HDPE pipe closed loop. I had originally planned a pump and dump system but at 750' no water. My neighbor hit 22 gpm at 200 feet, go figure.

    3. Top floor 3 ton FHP. Approx 1350 square feet on a 1500' of 1" HDPE at 14' deep horizontal closed loop.

    Location is eastern Tennessee.

    At 50 K i was way overbudget. When I show eveyone my mechanical room I tell them they are looking at a Cadilac Escalade.

    It stinks being first in my area and in my circle of acquaintances. I wish I would have found this forum 6 months ago.
  20. Mark Custis

    Mark Custis Not soon. Industry Professional Forum Leader

    How big is your yard.

    Rent me a trackhoe, I'll bring my opperator and landscaper.

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